And your alternative… is to grant them a huge damage boost inside that window?
I don’t see what the difference is, here. Just buffing the DA window with orbs that scale off mastery isn’t solving some kind of rampant mastery damage increase problem. Our DoTs aren’t super impressive damage on their own, or anything, so the realistic gains there aren’t even that great - the real benefit we’re losing is mastery’s % damage increase. And your proposal is to say ‘ok we lose that damage increase, but THIS TALENT OVER HERE brings BACK that damage increase!’ You’ve changed nothing about the DA window being too strong becuase you’ve essentially done the same thing.
Its an option to shift the damage to Mind Spike and Mind Blast at the cost of Damage over time spell damage. Just like it was in Cata.
You can choose to not take that damage increase talent because you rather have different types of damage for different situations… who knows. Point is though, that “bad” builds can exist. Blizzard said this will happen. But sometimes you don’t need that type of damage in your build.
Let me ask you this… If Voidform from Void Eruption stays the way it is now… Should you have the choice to get Hungering Void? I would assume if you don’t, you will be leaving a lot of potential on the table. So most likely you will pick Hungering Void. But its not required.
That logic applies to my idea of how to amp up Mind Blast and Mind Spike during the DA window. You have the choice to pick up those Shadow Orb talents or not. Might not be the best decision, but it is ultimately your decision to make and your allowed to make choices that could be concerning and in some views deemed as “Bad”. But that is the talent system we have now.
I am merely working within those set parameters all the while keeping the obvious dotless burst window choice available.
Which is already accomplished by losing DE stacks.
Yes, you should have that choice, and No, you don’t lose out on damage you already had on the table. DA makes you lose your ST damage that you already have. I don’t know what you’re not understanding about how that is different - do you think our mastery only affects DoT damage? Because that’s the only way what you’re saying makes much sense to me.
These, again, are different situations. Anyway, I can see it’s not worth discussing much further since you’re running in loops here. I’m gonna stop responding about this.
Your the one that keeps moving the goal post and I keep meeting your new goalpost with a solution. You just don’t like the solution.
First you said it cant be done with 2 talents… Then you said its a band-aid… then your saying we need to have our dots in that DA window when clearly we don’t as it worked just as I am explaining back in Cata.
There are many ways to go about this. But the flat out damage of Mind Spike gets the benefit of Mastery in DA window will just make them scaled at THAT level and as such be doing less damage outside that. THAT is bad because that goes against the purpose of WHY Mind Spike was ever brought to the table as an ability.
Blizzard on record stating that Mind Spike was intended for QUICK battles… i.e. BURST windows.
I already stated that your idea should be fine for Voidform if you want to both take Mind Spike AND Void Eruption. BUT why have both DA and VE if they do the same thing?
My solution is to have a difference of approach but still be effective in their own right.
I’ll respond once more - but mostly about what you’ve said that I said - because I didn’t say any of it. That said, this is my final post on this DA topic completely.
I did not, I said that shadow orbs is irrelevant to the conversation because you are still missing mastery damage.
That is still true even with your design. You’re just amping your design so much that you make up for lost mastery damage. It didn’t actually change the main gripe, it just supercharged the window to make up for it - this is a bad solution and a band-aid (as I said - which was not moving the goal-post at all, but describing your solution). You’re shoehorning a solution for a cooldown’s problem into another talent because… reasons.
And you’re attributing something someone else said to me.
No. Again, not what I said. I said that our dots do something completely different than they did in cata for our damage. They increase our Single Target spell damage on that Dotted target. Cata did not have this mechanic at all, so the design worked in cata, because all you lost was the DoT damage itself.
I would rather we kept the mastery bonus than create a whole new talent which we MUST pair with DA in order to make up for the damage we’re losing by taking DA. That doesn’t make sense to me. The talent is a damage cooldown. It should function like a damage cooldown on its own - As DA CURRENTLY is, entering that CD and trying to play mind spike to the CD’s strength LOSES you damage. That is a problem, and it should not require a talent across the entire tree from it to fix it. Void form, as a CD talent is ALWAYS a damage increase for the entire void form window, even if you don’t take its followup talents (which makes it more of a damage increase). That is the difference between the two.
Your statement is referring to the 2 Shadow Orb Talents.
Then I showed how 2 talents would work to fix it.
Then you acknowledged it would be fixed.
So now you no longer care to discuss Shadow Orb Talents as being a fix because you just don’t like it. Now you want to just say it should take the benefit of Mastery… Which I already agreed with you on but NOT for DA because it would diminish the POWER of Mind Blast and Mind Spike if they were granted EXTRA power in that window Via either not consuming DOTs or taking on the Mastery effect which again is what I think is better for Void Eruption. Having Both means they are both present but very similar so what the point?
Remove Voidform and okay we can have that discussion. But ATM I am trying to keep that playstyle alive for those that want it.
I am saying that’s not the DA issue. You think it is. I agree there are many ways to fix it. But just applying Mastery to DA window will make Mind Blast and Mind Spike outside of DA hit a lot less. the DPS window should not change your damage potential to such a degree that outside that window its BAD damage.
To FIX the low damage in that window as you are referring to… I think either the BASE damage of Mind Blast and Mind Spike need to go up so its good OUTSIDE of DA… OR the other modifiers (As I suggested) can amp up your Mind Blast and Mind Spike in and outside of DA. Doing that keeps the burst you want in DA and they will still feel impactful outside of DA. What you want is for DA to feel good because mastery applies in that state… but outside they wont hit hard. That is not what I want. Because atm outside they don’t benefit with mastery. My idea allows them to scale in and out and throughout the lifetime of progression. Yours only affects scaling while within DA window. Meaning outside they wont scale EVER because as you say… Mastery does not effect them.
I’d rather that didn’t happen. It will weaken spike outside the burst window when tuning hits. Change the mastery and tune it to be a marginal increase over dots so it can be skipped.
I have an extreme distaste for people putting words in my mouth.
No, I didn’t, I acknowledged that would ‘fix’ the problem. I then outlined why that fix wasn’t good and was just a band-aid. We completely disagree and I am never going to agree with your design because I think it is an awful way to make DA work.
Please stop talking to me at this point. It’s not going to go anywhere.
The solution of shadow orbs causing your ST to do 50% more damage in the DA window specifically will do the same thing. That’s precisely what I’m saying. If you’re concerned about Mind Spike being tuned down (uh… okay, this is a weird concern at a design stage anyway), then trying to fix the mastery buff by pushing the mastery buff onto another talent doesn’t change how much damage Mind Spike is doing. It does the same amount in a different way.
Mind Spike outside DA does 100 dmg
Mind Spike inside DA does 200 dmg (mastery buff)
Get mastery gear in X months later
Mind Spike Outside DA does 100 dmg
Mind Spike inside DA does 300 dmg (mastery buff)
Its really that simple.
Your “Solution” only fixes the damage “inside” the window. But that means for “balance reasons” they wont get buffed as much outside the window and ever reside in damage priority outside DA.
Do you think you will NEVER use Mind Spike without the proc and on targets without dots while also not in DA?
You WILL find moments to use Mind Spike on targets without dots and without procs or DA.
Mastery (Mastery: Shadow Weaving) increases the damage of your spells for each damage over time effect you have active on that target. This only works with Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, and Devouring Plague. While Voidform is active you get the benefit on every target as it they had all three dots active.
^ That will not scale with Mind Spike on targets you are bursting fast without dots and without DA if you want Mastery to affect Mind Spike while within DA window.
Your idea WILL NOT WORK outside DA. That is a problem as it nerfs the base damage… as I stated… multiple times.
A big concern is that back in the day mind spike procs routinely got spent into literally whatever was infront of you, especially in PvP. You didn’t have to spend 2-3 globals dotting something to make spending mind spike procs good.
Cata-WoD was all about effectively combining chunky direct damage and acceptable spread / rot damage. I’d love to avoid the scenario of noodle dots and ineffective direct damage because of the mastery interaction.
The orbs mastery of old has the same basic interaction, dotting stuff increases the damage of your direct damage spells, but it adds way more leeway to play around with and isn’t all consuming enough to be a necessary piece of overall to the point where your dots etc don’t do damage without it.
I don’t necessarily consider myself an advocate for that design verbatim, just explaining the current issue. I do, however, wanna mouseover mind spike proc an undotted warrior in my peripheral vision and it do more than tickle them.
I don’t necessarily disagree that it would be nice if mind spike did good damage to non-dotted targets.
But I think the solution to that is a rework of our mastery. I think having talents across the tree from each other that are necessary for one another to work within the context of the kit is a bad idea pretty much always. And I think having a talent that is meant to be a damage CD barely even function unless you take another talent as pretty terrible design. And if the bandwidth isn’t there to rework our mastery - I think the effort should be put in to make DA function well on its own. Not within the context of another talent choice.
Making bad builds is one thing. Making a counterintuitive choice is another, to me.
I would agree, but I do understand people advocating for that interaction being a part of the spec, whether that should just be our mastery again, or we just need a mastery that isn’t whatever it is now, so orbs can exist separately anyway I’m not sure.
The trees are looking a lot better and I’m excited to see the nyi talents. There are a few things to nitpick about but this rework has me hopeful that I’ll be able to buy and enjoy dragonflight.
I don’t like that the left capstones in the class tree are being gated by unwavering will and surge of light. I could see holy word life being interesting to take in PvP with a tankier build of shadow.
I don’t like that mindgames is on the class tree at all. I’d prefer if this option were some sort of shadow utility like door of shadows or black hole.
If we can’t have spectral guise, phantasm should offer a few seconds of invisibility.
Vamp embrace doesn’t really make much sense for holy or disc. Silence would be much more well-received utility on the class tree.
I’ve thought as much, but I just been to deep into shadow to give my take on the Class tree.
All I really care about is swapping Silence with Vampiric Embrace and sneaking Spectral Guise into the Class tree and BAM I am a complete Shadow Priest again.
I was thinking about a change I’d like to see to the shadow tree; dp is not very suitable as a main insanity spender. I would be interested in dp replacing damnation and returning to its mop/wod glory as a shadow orb spender. Void Torrent would be an excellent replacement as the main insanity spender given its excellent omega death laser animation.