I don’t disagree that Devouring Plague would be a good addition to Shadow Orbs… I even included that in my Write up that I linked to you before. You want to see it again?
This topic was once again sidelines into Mind Spike. So I am dispelling the rumors of Mind Spike. If you want to have the conversation about Devouring Plague gaining Shadow Orb interaction the Same as Mind Blast and Mind Spike, I am in agreeance with that. I think that would make Devouring Plague have more weight like in MoP and WoD. I would think that’s a good change.
But that doesn’t need to be taken away from Mind Spike.
Not sure if mind spike really needs it though, since it’s best to have orbs maximize on mind blast crit from spamming spikes.
I think this will improve it’s overall appeal in mind spike tree. But I could be wrong.
But for sure it needs to include Devour plague
If there was a build that did more overall damage without taking Mind Spike and therefore taking Mind Spike would only have its advantage in short burst kill targets…
Would you still have an issue?
Because it seems that is your only argument for why you should take Mind Spike.
I would say this, if taking Mind Spike turns out to be the best long form DPS build then that needs to be adjusted imo. But that can be done on a number tuning pass, it doesn’t need a mechanical change.
That is the stance I am taking. Mind Spike is NOT supposed to be the best for long form DPS. It is supposed to be for high burst short windows that falls off over time. If its not fitting that mold atm, then numbers should be adjusted to reflect that.
This is an interesting take. I’m not on the beta so I can’t test anything but this is the build I came up with for arena, assuming that Dark Ascension doesn’t become instant cast. The point in Malediction can go into Lunacy, depending on how easy it is to get VTs.
Positives if no Mind Spike (that I can see):
Mind Flay becomes better with Monomania and Idol of C’Thun. I feel like Mind Flay’s value increases with Dark Evangelism and Shadow Orbs. You could also take Mind Trauma. The flow of the game might have us Mind Flaying a lot if getting VTs out isn’t as difficult, even against double melee.
Lot less maintenance on buffs.
Negatives without Mind Spike (imo):
We lose another spell tree when get kicked. This might not be too bad since we have a ton of Holy Spells we can cast now.
Less instant cast burst with the loss of Surge of Darkness. Unless you’re going to be playing a comp that can triple cc then getting those fat Mind Blasts during burst windows might be hard, unless you’re gonna sit on your Vampiric Insight proc until your cc chain, which sounds bad. RPS might actually be able to pull this off now that Psychic Scream is 30s, but triple Mind Spike during a go doesn’t seem to bad. Obviously this depends on tuning.
Getting Mind Blasts (non-proc) out will be harder without Mind Melt.
I would prefer if Shadow Orbs affected DP instead, but I doubt it’ll change so we just gotta make do with what we got. Also, make Dark Ascension instant cast and work with Restless Crew and Driven to Madness please.
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There is still the problem that it is integrated with other talents that are useful in situations where short burst kill targets don’t exist. Without it, the talents have their power reduced.
VI is a lot less necessary than you think now.
I agree mostly with what you wrote. But some points…
IMO Mind Spike would be best for quick kill target swaps… so very good in world and PVP. Not so much 5 mans and raiding.
Dark Ascension Should include Mind Flay (As it did in Cata).
Dark Ascension Should be instant cast.
Devouring Plague being added to Shadow Orbs I think has a good chance at happening.
It makes more rot focused builds take advantage of Shadow Orbs while making our Spending ACTUALLY good. But this doesn’t need to detract from Mind Blast and Mind Spike from working with Shadow Orbs eithe.
I want to see the following changes.
Void Eruption moved to a choice node with mind spike and cd reduced to 1 min. Voidform no longer grants 10% increased damage.
Surge of darkness baked in to mind spike.
Surge of darkness talent replaced with a talent that reduces cd if Voidbolt and allows apparitions to deterministically build surge procs (3 apparations = 1 surge).
Mind melt has added effect of making mind blast instant during voidform.
Piercing shadows replaced with hungering void. Hungering void no longer extends voidform. Mind spike now triggers hungering void in addition to void bolt.
Dark Ascension moved to voidforms slit in the final tier. Dark Ascension now spawns 6-9 ghosts to attack the target on cast. Dark Ascension no longer removes dark evangelism stacks. Dark Ascension followup talent adds 50/100% chance to spawn an additional ghost each time you spawn a ghost during dark Ascension. Capstone is idol of yogg sarob.
I’d like to see all capstones become exclusively idols. Move the other capstones to choice nodes. Ie. Lunacy or mind devourer; monomania or shadowflame prism.
I never thought about 5 man’s and raiding, cause PvE lul. Guess I’ll mess around with a PvE builds though.
I 100% agree that Orbs should work with DP. It makes Derangement and Lunacy seem more enticing. Plus an Shadow Orb buffed DP (w/ Derangement) into triple Mind Spike might brings us back to our pre-Legion glory.
Me gusta.
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I think anything you loose from NOT picking up Mind Spike and its interaction, you will gain back or more by having more points to spend on other stuff.
Not every talent you pick, do you need to grab every type of synergy from other talents. That’s why some gain benefits form different ones…
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Fiending Dark = Mind Flay / Mind Spike
- Why? Because Mind Blast has a cooldown, it cant be spammed. So having Shadow Shadow Fiend CD reduced by either Mind Flay or Mind Spike means either “spammable” ability will be on par to getting crit proc… except imo Mind Flay wins because you can crit multiple times with each dot tick vs Mind Spike only once per cast.
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Whispers of the Damned = Mind Blast / Mind Spike
- Why? Because this is a talent that is leaning into that “burst” style gameplay and they need to gain resource more so here because chances are your not gaining resource from Mind Flay or Dots during those windows (or as much otherwise).
- Also, you need to land a critical hit. That only happens at a guaranteed level with Mind Blast when you factor in Mind Spike. But that is a lot of setup to execute that for a small amount of insanity gained. Maddening Touch is much better for Dot / rot builds. This saves 2 points to focus more into those builds instead.
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Psychic Link = Mind Blast / Mind Spike
- Why? Because it takes time to cast Mind Spike, it does not provide that much oomph when you could instead have a harder hitting Mind Blast. I really don’t think this is much of a loss. It was a low hitting Mind Blast previously at 30/60. Now its a Hard hitting Mind Blast at 15/30 OR a okay hitting mind Blast and Mind Spike at 15/30. Mechanically I think it works fine. Number tuning is all that needs to occur if at all for this.
In conclusion, not using up to 3 points on Mind Spike can open up a lot more possible options within the tree. What you think you loose out on will be given back in a different form from other talents. THAT is how it should be. Will it be? Not sure, that is where number tuning will come into play. But mechanically speaking, I don’t think that is an issue.
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What’s the CD of Mind Blast, without Imp MB, and also unhasted? At work so I can’t check for myself. Thought it was 7.5s in SLands, but they probably bumped it up since they added Imp MB.
Help.
Mind Blast CD baseline is 15.
Improved Mind Blast reduced it by 3/6 = 9
It is reduced further with haste.
You can go on PTR to test changes. You don’t need Beta.
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Another change I’d like to see to reduce 1 pt of utility from the spec tree if silence will not be moved to the class tree. Replace Void shield with mental fortitude and have it work with all overhealing you do to yourself. Bake the effects of intangibility into dispersion.
Thanks.
Nah I’m at work so I can’t check either way lol.
All of these talents are nerfed versions in order to make Mind Spike more central to Shadow game play. Psychic Link has to do less damage since more than one source can trigger it. Fiending Dark has to reduce the cooldown by less because more than one source can trigger it. Whispers of the damned has to reward less Insanity because more than one source can trigger it.
If they wanted more than one source to trigger these talents I would prefer they have it be done by other existing abilities instead of adding a whole new button to press. Shadow already had a button bloat problem. This does not help that problem.
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Then we disagree.
Psychic link combined with a 3 orb Mind Blast will hit HARD and transfer its 30% damage via the link. Prior, we didn’t have such a Hard hitting Mind Blast. That is the real balance. But I also can see some of the power was adjusted because you can Spam Mind Spike. Which brings me to my point that its good across cleave and burst windows. NOT for primary target. So for Primary target, you don’t need Mind Spike / Link. Also, we have multiple ways to deal cleave / aoe damage now. So you don’t need to use the link method as you can go the Death route or the Mins Sear route or the SFP route etc.
Why would Fiending Dark be negative impacted by NOT taking Mind Spike?
I already stated that you get the benefit of Mind Flay… and its better. You flat out cant cast both at same time so you have to choose otherwise. The only slightly benefit is ONLY when you get SoS procs as then its instant cast. But that’s random anyway and not a guaranteed it will crit. With Mind Flay, 1 cast and you can get more then 1 crit and even back to back crits within 1 GDC. It is simply better for Mind Flay to work with Fiending Dark. Having Mind Spike interact with it is more so it actually is not a dead talent if you go a more Mind Spike build. But having both Mind Spike and Mind Flay interacting with it does not mean you gain both at same time. Its you choosing to use 1 GDC for either or.
Whispers of the damned once again is just a another source to gain insanity from as you wont be getting it from Mind Flay as often because you are leaning into using your spammable button with Mind Spike more so than with Mind Flay.
I am not going to continue rehashing these points after this. You will either see my side or not. If not, then we just see things differently and we cant continue this any further. But I still stand by the fact that Mind Spike can and should be / remain a choice from a numbers perspective. When you factor in more points freed up to pick other options and the tuning differences etc. Mind Spike should NOT be the build for your primary target damage windows. So it being better in other situations like cross cleave / burst I think that is fine. Not every talent can or should be the best in everything… you have to make concessions as you see fit.
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Mind spike is high priority single target burst with bender, PI, coalescing shadows and whichever of DA or Void eruption.
Yes, a Burst window. But imo DA should include Mind Flay just like in Cata. Doing that and you don’t “need” to use your “filler” being Mind Spike.
Doesn’t address the button bloat issue. All of these talent and ability interactions could have been done without adding a new button to put on your action bar, especially one which by itself has niche uses.
Do you take Damnation?
That’s an extra button. But it can be avoided. If fact, with the current talent tree. You HAVE to take EITHER Mind Spike OR Damnation in order to get Psychic Link. Either choice adds anther button.
With how I rearranged the tree. I remove extra button bloat while retaining Mind Spike.
- Remove Dark Void (Doesn’t really have a place compared to Shadow Crash / Misery synergy)
- Damnation / Void Torrent (Cooldown for Cleave / focus damage option)
- Shadow Crash / Insanity (Multi Target / Single target option)
- Dark Ascension / Void Eruption (Removes cooldown stacking nonsense and focuses on gameplay CD style)
And other little QOL changes I made.
I’ve already said it but Shadows Talent Tree is messy. It could use a lot more clean up and rearrangement.
Edit:
One thing I have been thinking on is having Mind Spike be a Switch Talent. So those that want to press it without consuming dots… it can do that at the cost of doing less damage. Or to spread dots but doing A LOT less damage.
This will allow both styles of Burst Play vs filler being Mind Flay or Mind Spike play.