Dragonflight Alpha - Retribution Paladin Feedback

Classes Paladin
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Quick introduction: I’ve been playing Paladin since 2004. I play many other classes, but Paladin is still my favourite.
Over the years at various times I have been a hardcore raider, a casual, sold challenge mode/m+ boosts, achieved realm firsts and realm best, dabbled in arenas, 2400+ in RBGs… I’ve done almost everything this game has to offer.
I am biased and my ideas are not perfect, but I am passionate about this game and about Retribution in particular. I hope my feedback is clearly communicated, insightful, and interesting.

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General Feedback

  • As a melee spec, it is difficult for Retribution to find a niche in raids. Ret needs unique offensive group utility such as Mystic Touch, Windfury Totem, etc. or it will not find a spot in Dragonflight raiding
    • This must be completely unique to Ret - it cannot be something that is brought by Holy or Protection Paladins
  • There are too many random effects that influence our damage
    • Art of War, Ashes to Dust, Divine Purpose, Fires of Justice/Empyrean Power, Expurgation, Boundless Judgment, Templar’s Vindication, Sanctification, Incandescence, Seal of the Crusader
    • Reacting to procs is fun, but having too much of your damage tied to random effects is not enjoyable; takes away player agency over their performance
  • Ret has always struggled with having so much damage tied to Avenging Wrath
    • Damage outside this cooldown feels inconsequential
    • …but AW is an iconic ability, and should feel impactful
    • Past expansions had ways to increase AW uptime, like Vision of Perfection (BFA)
    • Consider adding a talent along the lines of “While Avenging Wrath is not active, Holy Power abilities reduce its cooldown by X sec”
  • A large amount of Rets damage is tied to procs from auto attacks
    • Paladins are the slowest class by design
    • Losing uptime is a huge damage loss, and historically that has not been the case

Class Tree

  • Seems unfinished, so I will not be going too far in-depth about this yet
  • There are too many dps talents and they all feel “mandatory” for a damage spec
    • Trading damage for healing/utility is interesting as a healer/tank, but not as dps
  • Have to give up dps talents for utility talents - feels awful
    • Elemental & Enhancement Shamans do not have to give up any damage talents in their class tree to take utility
    • Consider reducing the amount of talent points that need to be spent increasing damage output to free up points to spend on utility nodes

Auras

  • Devotion Aura is the main raid utility for Paladins, like Mystic Touch for Monks
    • Thematically appropriate and iconic
    • 3% damage reduction is an “invisible” effect; if it was bugged and did nothing, nobody would notice
    • Neither fun or impactful
  • Retribution Paladins will never use Devotion Aura because Retribution Aura provides a damage increase
    • Offensive vs Defensive auras is not a good paradigm
  • Swapping auras in combat is not fun because they are minor effects

Avenging Wrath

  • Not a single person is going to ever skip taking this iconic ability
  • Should be a baseline ability
  • If the intent is to have it as a leveling reward, have it learned at level 20+
  • Crusade/Might are unnecessarily complex and confusing

Blessing of Sacrifice

  • Recompense is degenerate gameplay, please remove this talent asap

Divine Steed

  • Why is it 1min cooldown now
  • 4 talents to get a worse version of the Shadowlands steed? Thanks, I hate it

Seal of Reprisal

  • Too powerful to ever skip - is this a problem?

Seal of the Templar

  • Retribution will always use Retribution Aura (see above)
  • Good for solo play, I guess
  • Does this need to be conditional? Would it be too strong if it was just always active?

Aspirations of Divinity

  • Flat +Primary stat does not scale well with item level
  • Will be stronger in early tiers, and weaker in later tiers
  • Consider changing this to +1/2/3% primary stat instead of a flat amount

Seal of Clarity

  • Anti-synergy with Divine Purpose

Touch of Light vs Incandescence

  • Both of these are very weak - is this intentional?

Hallowed Ground

  • Boring and weak
  • Almost zero damage increase, could be fixed with tuning?

Seal of the Crusader

  • +15% holy damage is good but it’s random and has a low duration, hard to take advantage of it when it procs
  • Low average uptime, doesn’t feel very impactful

Retribution

Consecration

  • Poor damage, does not generate Holy Power, not a fun button to press
  • It is made useful and interesting through all the talents in the Retribution tree, but it still feels like a bad button to press
  • The static damage field is terrible for movement
    • Kiting in m+, some boss fights, PVP
    • This works for Protection since it is a tank and controls enemy location
    • Works for Death Knights that can grip enemies into their Death and Decay
    • Does not work as well for a slow melee dps spec like Ret
    • Consecrated Blade and Consecrated Ground help with this problem

Row 3

  • Improved Crusader Strike
    • Acceptable
  • Timely Judgment
    • Boring and weak
  • Swift Crusader
    • Boring and weak
    • Poor placement in tree, will never be picked
  • Condemning Blade
    • Interesting but weak
    • 5% crit chance on one ability for 1 talent point feels weak
    • Combos with Expurgation
  • Holy Blade
    • Does this need to be a talent?

Row 4

  • Highlord’s Judgment
    • Boring and weak
  • Shield of Vengeance
    • Taking damage to deal damage never feels correct
    • Degenerate gameplay to use defensive tools for offense
    • Historically always a problem in PVP
    • Doesn’t feel good to spend global cooldown on this
    • Consider replacing this with Divine Protection
  • Expurgation
    • Interesting, but weak
    • Could be fixed with tuning

Row 5

  • Calm Before the Storm
    • Interesting, but weak
    • Consecration damage is borderline negligible
    • Consider changing this to something like “After using Divine Storm your next Crusader Strike deals 20% more damage and strikes all enemies standing in your Consecration”
  • Righteous Verdict
    • See Execution Sentence/Executioner’s Will section below
  • Zeal
    • Interesting and impactful
    • 30% attack speed feels good with all the Art of War reset talents
    • Feels good in ST & AOE
  • Boundless Judgment
    • Completely useless in ST but competes with a talent that is good in ST & AOE
    • Has to be the superior choice for AOE or it will never be picked
    • Unnecessary randomness
  • Wake of Ashes
    • Interesting and impactful
  • Consecrated Blade
    • Interesting but weak
    • Consecration doesn’t do much damage
    • Weak on its own, but great synergy across the tree - this is fine
  • Blade of Wrath
    • Interesting and impactful
  • Last Rites
    • Boring and weak
    • Outside of Divine Toll/Resonance, takes a long time for 3 Judgments
    • Could be fixed with the right tuning

Row 6

  • Consecrated Ground
    • Interesting but weak
    • Does not increase our damage; this is a utility talent
    • AOE snare is really great utility - consider moving this to Row 7
  • Inner Power vs Sanctification
    • These are too similar - does this need to be a choice node?
    • If Sanctification doesn’t generate significantly more holy power on average then it will be useless
  • Path of Ruin
    • Interesting and strong, but has some problems
    • Combos with Final Reckoning + Judgement + Mastery, feels like a good upgrade
    • Needs to be a stronger than TV/DS by a wide margin to compensate for loss of Wake
    • Does not benefit from any of the talents for TV/DS
    • If it is only better in AOE, will feel awful to pick this in dungeons whenever you get to a boss since you gave up Wake generating HP
    • Feels awkward in single target with Execution Sentence since they both cost 3 HP and you have to give up Wake generating HP
  • Ashes to Dust
    • Interesting and strong
  • Execution Sentence
    • Only useful in pure single target builds
    • Placement in the middle of the tree is good for a pure single target ability
    • However it is very powerful and impacts gameplay tremendously
    • Many players do not enjoy the “1 minute burst” Execution Sentence gameplay
    • Seems more appropriate as a capstone talent than a middle talent, but capstone talents should not have pure ST choices
    • Consider making this a choice node with another single target effect (Final Verdict?)
    • See Executioner’s Will section
  • Truth’s Wake
    • Boring and weak; doesn’t feel worth 1 talent point
    • Could be easily fixed with proper tuning
  • Fires of Justice vs Empyrean Power
    • Low proc chance tied to our lowest priority builder
    • Both are 15% chance proc off Crusader Strike to accelerate HP - too similar
    • Consider changing one of these effects to differentiate them
    • Consider moving moving to the left side of the tree (swap with Inner Power vs Sanctification choice node?)
  • Deemed Unworthy
    • Interesting effect but too weak
    • Not impactful enough to make me care about tracking it
    • Could be fixed with proper tuning

Row 7

  • Long Arm of the Law
    • Interesting but weak
    • Long Arm of the Law used to feel good when it was 45% speed for 3 sec
    • 20% for 2 sec is almost negligible
  • Exorcism
    • Interesting and strong
    • Good mix of ST & AOE
    • A good “payoff” for the Consecration playstyle
    • Perhaps this should be a capstone talent and a bit stronger? Replace Final Verdicts spot and make Exorcism generate Holy Power?
  • Hand of Hindrance
  • Executioner’s Will
    • Interesting and strong
    • A very cool effect, but many players do not like Execution Sentence
    • Consider changing this to a Choice Node with Executioner’s Will vs Righteous Verdict
    • See Execution Sentence section
  • Healing Hands vs Selfless Healer
    • Interesting and strong
  • Tempest of the Lightbringer
    • Interesting and strong
  • Eye for an Eye
    • Acceptable
  • Justicar’s Vengeance
    • Hasn’t been picked since it was added in Legion; won’t be picked now
    • Needs significant rework, removal, or replacement

Row 8

  • Virtuous Command
    • Interesting but weak
    • Has good synergy with Divine Toll + Resonance
    • Could be fixed with proper tuning
    • Pure single target talent in bottom part of tree feels out of place
  • Templar’s Vindication
    • Boring and not impactful
    • Pure single target talent in bottom part of tree feels out of place
    • Leads to Divine Toll and Crusade; does not seem like a logical progression
  • Relentless Inquisitor
    • Acceptable, although it is boring
    • Functionally worse than just having a +3/6% Haste talent
    • Works on both ST & AOE

Row 9 & 10 - Capstone Talents

  • Final Verdict has no AOE component, but the others contribute to both AOE + ST

    • “Single target vs AOE” is not an interesting niche for capstone talents
    • All the capstone talents should impact both AOE & ST
    • It is okay to have talents that only effect AOE or ST in top/middle of talent tree

  • The Ashes to Ashes + Final Reckoning line feels too powerful

    • Every build will take this line
    • Final Reckoning feels good on its own, but many players do not enjoy the “1 minute burst” gameplay of Final Reckoning + Execution Sentence
    • If Execution Sentence is changes as outlined above, this will feel less mandatory
    • Consider moving to right side of tree since the right side has all the “Art of War” talents

  • Divine Toll + Divine Resonance is a good mix of AOE & ST

    • Interesting synergy with other Judgment talents
    • Feels like an appropriate capstone to Judgment talents

  • Liadrin’s Fury

    • Too similar to Divine Resonance
    • Can take both, but it still seems like this could be more interesting
    • Consider replacing with Vanguard’s Momentum (1 point talent)

  • Vanguard’s Momentum

    • 1st point in this talent is much more impactful than 2nd point
    • Many builds will take 1 point in this, seems weird
    • Consider replacing this with Light’s Decree (2 point talent)

  • Final Verdict

    • As outlined above, consider moving this to a Choice Node with Execution Sentence
    • Replace with Exorcism?

Here is a mockup of what the talent tree could look like with the changes listed above:

(yellow = moved, red = new)

Please let me know what you think about my feedback and talent tree mock-up! Thank you for reading.

34 Likes
2

I really like that you broke it down and gave feedback on each spell and how it feels to press that button or spec into that node. Those are helpful feedback comments.

The tree layout however, seems to have the same issues we see on the first one presented. It still feels a bit jumbled with no clear routes to encourage players to take while accumulating to a satisfying talent payoff.

If you look at the Shaman tree, you can see some pretty clear design decisions, in working with an underlining theme. The left side is mainly to do with the Wind elements, the right side is mainly Fire and Ice, with Lighting and AoE along the middle for both to tap into.

Similar, Unholy DK have very clear cut Festering Strike vs Ghoul builds that end with Gargoyle and Unholy Frenzy. It feels as if you are building up to that climax talent.

Imgur

This kind of has that same issue with Judgement being a bit scattered, along with utility. (In pink) Also, the AoE from DS is very left sided heavy, so unlike Shaman and Unholy Dk, both sides can’t really access it too easily.

  1. Eye for an Eye shouldn’t be a talent in the Ret tree, that should be pushed to the Class tree.
  2. Final Verdict should be more accessible higher in the tree, because I think we all agree that it’s a more fun and interesting spell to have as Paladins.
  3. Going to an optional talent into an optional talent with FV and ES is a bit risky for new players to not get value out of one or the other. Does Executioner’s Will benefit me at all if I choose FV?
  4. Utility is what you need to be viable, DPS is your play style, so the Raid Utility, LAotL, SoV, etc should be higher in the tree.
  5. BoJ has 2, too many talents dedicated to it and not nearly enough to CS.

The accumulation of your Talent tree journey should be a fun and interesting button press (or passive) and I don’t think Virtuous Command and Relentless Inquisitor fit that description.

I would be really really interested in seeing a talent tree that leads to Exorcism or Execution Sentence as I think those would be really good deep talents that create this unique playstyle.

8 Likes
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[moved to a separate thread]

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I really liked your breakdown. I also chuckled at the lack of comment on Hand of Hindrance.

I wanted to tackle the class tree from the perspective of the Ret paladin.
Specifically this

I agree with you, the amount of point to spend on damage is too much to make it interesting compared to what Holy will need to spend to get to the end of the left portion.

As a Ret, the trees right now feels like they are missing 3 to 4 point each to achieve a meaningful build.

My suggestion would be to give each spec the first 3 abilities up to Divine steed. Blizzard seems adamant about this being our mobility ability so might as well give it to us straight up since that’s the talent that also lead to Avenging Wrath. I would also make both Seal of Might and Seal of the Crusader 2 point talents (6%/12% and 7.5%/15% respectively).

This would free up 3 point to either invest into maxing out pony (lol) OR actually pick up some utility talent such as Golden path (which I’m happy to see actually heal multiple people now), cleanse and Blessing of Spellwarding.

4 Likes
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This is already answered though… FV completely replaces Templar’s Verdict. For all intents and purposes, FV is just a better TV. This is shown on live clearly with such examples as Templar’s Vindication and Righteous Verdict interacting with Final Verdict as you’d expect with it being a replacement ability.

2 Likes
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I would imagine that the in game tooltips will update when you take the talent, like they do now.

3 Likes
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In his example, I simply read it that I could choose between Final Verdict and Execution Sentence, then the next node would let me choose between Executioner’s Will and Righteous Verdict.

So, if I took Final Verdict, what use is Executioner’s Will?

If the following talent automatically updates once you’ve chosen your desired hexagon skill, that would take care of it, but that’s not something I’ve seen any existing talent tree design do.

I think the work and effort he put into this is really cool, I just think the Ret talent tree could use some better structure, as the other classes I’ve seen that have an underlining theme or “path” seem to be more gratifying.

I just think the talent tree needs to be thinned out.

Imgur

1 Like
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Ohh you mean his version. I’d assume you wouldn’t be able to choose Executioner’s Will in that case then, but that does seem a bit too convoluted for the talent tree. A simpler design would be better if a complicated structure can be reasonably avoided.

1 Like
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That is correct - my intent was that the 2 choice nodes are locked together. Execution Sentence must take Executioner’s Will, and Final Verdict leads to Righteous Verdict

It’s not simple, but it’s also just a first draft :wink:

It may require a new type of UI element to indicate that one decision locks you out of the other

1 Like
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Great post. Love the effort put in.

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This is a great write-up and I tip my hat to you for all the work you put into this.

As for my feedback after a cursory glance, in my humble opinion:

  • Hard dependency of wake of ashes on Shield of vengeance should be severed. As it stands, that makes SoV pretty much a mandatory pick.
  • eye for an eye will be imo better suited for a paladin tree rather than ret tree
  • inner power should be a mid range terminal choice, rather than a central node in its subtree. The more we are coerced into picking talents that generate HP from “thin air” rather than as an immediate result of a builder (e.g. divine resonance, inner power), the more issues we are going to have with overcapping HP and optimizing damage output, and instead we will have to focus on what is currently “lit up”
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Another idea I had about the class tree, if Blizzard was willing to condense talents a bit, would be to move Rebuke where Divine steed is. Giving easy access to the interrupt to all class and make mobility option branch from this with Divine steed on 1 side (45 sec CD, 2 charges and 5 sec duration already) and Speed of light on the other side (30 sec CD, 1 charge, 5 sec duration)

The thing is, the interrupt now becomes mandatory and you cant remove it for fight you don’t need it.
Alternatively I thought rebuke could switch place with Seal of Alacrity as to make it less awkward for prot to pick it up (Going on a tangent here sorry).
Then make a choice node out the middle mobility node. (I really want the option to use something else than Steed)

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We’ll done, you’ve got a good understanding of paladin issues! Hopefully blizz reads some of these threads.

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Took another pass at the mockup talent tree
Left side is all about Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Consecration. Right side is about Blade of Justice and Judgement.


(Yellow = moved, Red = new, Green = buffed)

What do you guys think?

2 Likes
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Expurgation and Blade of Wrath should change positions.
Timely Judgment should either be buffed or scrapped, 1s is just bad.
I like the ES/FV point.
Divine Toll and Divine Resonance should be way higher, somewhere in the middle.
SoV shouldn’t be tied to WoA.
Path of Ruin vs Ashes to Dust should be a capstone.

That’s just my two cent, without being qualified.

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Why? Things like Mystic Touch, Chaos Brand, Lust, Brex, etc are all brought by every spec of the Classes that have the skill.

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If it can be brought by a non-dps spec, then there is no reason to bring a Ret Paladin unless we are the best damage dealer in the game. Historically this has never been the case, and I don’t see that changing in Dragonflight.

There are already limited spots for melee, and having buffs brought by healer and tank roles makes those buffs common. Windwalkers have Mystic Touch but still struggle to get raid spots because Mistweavers and Brewmasters are popular enough that the raid already has Mystic Touch covered. Feral Druids have a similar problem to Windwalker and Retribution.
It is easier to justify non-utility spots for ranged damage classes, since there is typically no limit to how many ranged you can bring.

It is a different scenario with Chaos Brand (DH) and Battle Shout (Warrior) since those buffs can only be brought by tank or melee, and not healer/ranged specs. There are only 2 spots in the raid for tanks, but 6-7 for tanks+healers.

Retribution needs something like Windfury Totem - a party buff that can compensate for not being the top damage spec. It is also fitting that Ret Paladins get an offensive support buff, since we have always been considered to be a supporting/buffing class and Retribution is our damage specialization.

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I’m aware. It’s really only an issue if you’re in a bleeding edge and/or highly competitive Mythic prog Guild though since the best ability is availability as they say and having a Ret (or any spec) who shows up regularly trumps a meta spec played by a flake but that’s beside the point.

Ret also brings one of the few real Immunities, BoP, Freedom and Off healing when needed. It’s not like they’re lacking Utility. At some point if Blizz gives every spec they’re own unique utility we’ll be back to square one since Raid Leaders and M+ Keyholders will just pick the “best” for their comp.

Maybe Pally’s will get Kings back now that MotW is returning.

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I agree with this to an extent. I think it’s fine for all paladins to bring a shared buff like Battle Shout and Chaos Brand, and that simply should be Devo Aura.

Auras truly need to be condensed and treated as the shared class buff.

Ret does need additional group utility, similar to Rallying Cry and AMZ, but that could also be brought by Holy/Prot, as it shouldn’t be required to bring any one spec, imo.

  • BoSac could have an optional talent to be ST based or AoE based.
  • Aura Mastery could be in the Class talent, high in the tree on the “Holy Side.”
  • Or ideally, a new Buff/Blessing/CD added for Paladins
3 Likes
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I am not advocating for every spec to get offensive raid buffs. Melee damage specializations on classes with healer/ranged specializations have a unique problem, and I think it is justified for them to receive additional offensive utility to help ensure they are desirable in a raid setting even when their class is present in another role.