DPS imbalance in AoE / Mythic+

Community General Discussion
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DISCLAIMER: This has nothing to do with the MDI. I’m using data from Archon.gg based on keys from 26-32; way above what is done in the MDI.

Hey everyone!

This is a thread discussing the overall imbalance of specs relative to their AoE performance in keys. Currently, I would argue that single target performance is relatively well balanced based on fight logs from Volcoross and Smolderon, but the same cannot be said about Mythic +, which is arguably one of the largest communities/player engagement end-games in the game currently.

To start off, my data is pulled from the following table: https://imgur.com/gallery/sG3XDFs

  • Source: https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/dps-rankings/mythic-plus/high-keys/all-dungeons/this-week

What are some findings from this?

Putting out some highlights:

  • Average DPS per key (non-parse number weighted average): 280.1 k DPS
  • Average DPS per key (parse number weighted average): 309.6 k DPS
    • Note: parse number weighted means the average DPS of that spec times the number of parses, which is a better representation of performance. The reason for this is that if you compare the average of, say, Affliction warlock (2650 parses) and Ret paladin (144968 parses), they would be weighed equally, which is not accurate since Ret has 54 times more players in M+

Currently, there are therefore:

  • 18 DPS specs below the weighted average (out of 26; 69.2% or 19.2% over-representation)

Recommendations

Given the above, I would recommend buffing the underperformers to a goal DPS of 309.6 k as the current weighted average. The difficulty in this request is that (if implemented) this would have to be done without altering single target performance since the balance of single target specs is currently relatively optimal.

I can give some recommendations on Arcane since that’s what I main, but before that I was wondering if anyone else had some thoughts regarding this.

4 Likes
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You can’t balance 39 specs around 5 man MMO content and have diversity in class design at the same time. It is impossible.

M+ was a mistake, and trying to build an end game around it has probably driven out more players over the years than any other system. Sure, it retains the diehards, but everything else has suffered because the game wasn’t built for competitive 5 man content.

Arena has the same issues.

12 Likes
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While they could do better this season has been one of the most balanced.

Also dps numbers are not everything as we don’t need to buff aug evokers.

The meta in itself also feed the meta, more players play it so the better players play it so the difference between meta and non-meta grows.

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The overall spread appears to go from 233k to 318k. That’s pretty large. On specific dungeons it can get a lot larger.

While you can’t perfectly balance the specs, the previous seasons were much closer, within 5% for the most part.

I gave up on my main this season for the first time ever because it was one those specs at 233k. Added to that downer is how annoying M+ is becoming with the visual and cognitive overload.

No one likes being the carry. Making that situation a mathematical and systemic certainty for a large portion of the player base is very bad for the game.

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Press X to doubt.

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You know WCL keeps previous season data.

You can go look.

Surprised me as well but every time I would bother doing apples to apples comparisons because things felt out of balance things turned out to be pretty close.

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s2 was pretty terrible s3 seems fine

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you’ll be blasting next season with rashok weapon & neltharion trinket soon my friend :v:

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Balance above +20 does not matter and I don’t want devs dedicating time and effort to it.

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I don’t want to play an MMO where they are constantly trying to balance specs to be within 3-5% of each other. You cannot have interesting RPG class design while these systems exist.

People always say it is a community issue, and I’d say that is true, but the real blame is on Blizzard for trying to pander to people that want to play MMOs like this.

I constantly see posts like this complaining about x class not being viable in M+, when the reality is, all the classes are pretty viable because of how homogenized all the classes are.

M+ was okay at first, but when they started adding ladders, scoring, it just became a competitive sweatfest and a nightmare to balance around.

I didn’t sign up to play a MMO to clear hallways of hard trash mobs on a timer, this is basically what M+ is. It is a blight on the game, and it holds back interesting class design, as well as Blizzard being able to create actual RPG dungeons.

M+ tried to copy the gameplay loop of endgame ARPGs, but doesn’t have the core aspect of what makes that content fun in ARPGs, namely tons of build variations, tons of cool loot, and not worrying about having to balance that content around MMO setting.

I know I get a lot of flack on these forums about my hate towards M+, but I’m right on this one. M+ sucks, and the only reason people gravitate towards it, is because raiding in the game is just a pain, as well as there not being much content outside of raiding and M+.

Blizzard has been dropping the ball for years relying on boring systems like M+ to carry the game instead of actually making new content.

I think they spend a ton of potential development time trying to balance this competitive content, which only really caters to a very a small % of the player base.

I think they are starting to realize that catering your game around Mythic raiders, and people that want to spam hallways of trash on a timer wasn’t the best move long term for the game.

Instead of addressing the lack of content in the game, and the lack of interest in raiding, they keep trying to create these stupid systems like M+.

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Things are wonky because the balancing break point was 20. Anything beyond that doesnt matter

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Totally agree, I like to look at 18’s because that’s the most relevant level for most players.

And guess what…

It’s not balanced there either.

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That’s a lot of words. What is your suggestion of a new endgame system that replaces M+ and raiding?

Please don’t say world quests or pet battles or something lol.

I love WoWs endgame, and no MMO comes close to it’s quality. The only alternative I’ve seen is repeatable world content, which is easy and boring - not much different from time rifts.

By the by, Blizz is updating endgame again next xpac with delves etc.

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This simply involves number tuning tho
For Arcane, this could simply involve Arcane Barrage/Arcane Orb/Orb Barrage buffs that have absolutely no impact on the rotation.

I’m not sure I see your argument? You can have your RPG design with cool things in it and also have balance. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

As proof, I suggested a Spellslinger tree not too long ago that actually incorporated a cool Laser spell for both Arcane and Frost (because lasers are cool!). Source: https://imgur.com/gallery/Uu37c2J

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I don’t think you guys understand how limited they are trying to create content and design classes around M+.

It is a waste of time arguing this on these forums, anyone posting here would be part of the most diehard retail players, so you guys just wouldn’t understand.

Enjoy your boring skinnerbox that barely gets new content. Imagine paying 15 bucks a month to run the same dungeons you ran years ago, and 9 new dungeons for 2 years.

If M+ is so great, why aren’t the devs making more dungeons per expansion? You would think they would be pumping out dungeons like crazy if this content was carrying the game.

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But there are entire specs who do no damage at key levels of 18-20 (i.e. Boomy) because they need time to ramp.

By your metric, Boomies should get AoE buffs even though they are actually overperformers…
(for those who don’t know, boomies need to put Sunfire, then Moonfire on everything before they can start spamming Starfall. If the mobs die before they even start stack Starfall, they will do no damage)

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17

Balancing specs sounds nice, but it is impossible to balance M+ AOE.

What would even be the standard for balancing? 5 targets? 8 targets? Trash pull lasting 30 seconds? Lasting 45 seconds? There are too many variables.

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They dont create around m+ but they do do a lot of balancing and tuning changes because of m+

You’ll see everyone start to balance out in raids (as well as one can expect at least) as the season goes on. Cant say the same for m+

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No one is asking for perfect balance. First few weeks of the season DH’s were running around doubling most specs output. Despite the “impossible” task of balancing that was reigned in and now there is a much larger cohort of specs in the same ball bark as DH.

So adjustments can be made. And while I agree that perfection is the enemy of the good, the bad is also the enemy of the good.

1 Like
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Perfect example of why trying to create competitive PVE content around speed running hallways of trash mobs is bad for class design.

If you’re asking for specs to be within 5% of each other, then you are asking for perfection here.