Double the damage of Final Verdict, I'm not joking

Reduce Judgement damage by 30%, reduce blade of justice damage by 20%, reduce crusading strikes/templar strikes damage by 25%

And in return increase Final Verdicts damage by ~100%. Almost every ability besides the actual auto attack replacement and BoJ deals the same damage as Final Verdict. MAYBE during your PEAK burst period it will hit fairly hard, but now it’s just there.

Back in SL, everything else was a builder to build up for those PHAT Templar’s Verdict. It felt good, it felt powerful. Now you’re lucky if Verdict is above Emperyan Hammer or Judgement on the damage meter.

This is mainly geared towards pvp, I should mention.

Just kind of sad that Ret has gone from the heavy swinger burst class, to Templar, which is just a moderate sustained damage class minus ONE ability that hits hard… and Herald of the Sun. Which turns us into a DOT class. Ret. Dot class. Lmfao.

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People quite literally had the opposite opinion at that time.
Here’s a thread from a bit before SL was released saying builders were hitting like wet noodles and didn’t feel good to press.

And it didn’t change in SL…

DF had a good balance between builders and Spenders but the arrival of Hero spec in TWW and their gimmick further diluted everything else to the point of being interchangeable.

So now, relatively speaking, they make for a lower % of our damage than ever.

I don’t think this is something that’s easily fixed, simply because Hero Spec are here to stay.

They could reduce the relative power of the Hero spec and boost back base kit, with spender as the focus but that’s only ever going to be some point of % at most.

This feature needs to keep a certain level of impact otherwise it would feel pointless.

Here’s another thread from 2020

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it didnt, spenders and builders were almost equal in terms of strength in df post rework to

again buff spenders nerf generators. we cant please everyone but this is certainly not healthy and the bloat of hopo is bad

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Or…

Stay with me here…

Or, just slightly buff spenders WITHOUT nerfing generators.

I’m sorry but having capable/powerful generators is NOT a bad thing.

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They weren’t, stop lying on stuff that’s easily demonstrable.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ndQ946gZYCB3xJXc?fight=3&type=damage-done&source=8

FV was easily twice the damage of the closest builder.

Nearly as much for DS on fight where we used it.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wa2GZkNM1r8h6dmz?fight=1&type=damage-done&source=23

Liar

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This is aberrus, ty for cherry picking to prove your wrong point

Cherry pick my a**, I went and took one of my logs and picked a random one on the rankings for that time.

This is DF and AFTER the rework, that’s a pretty good example of what Spender and builders were relative to each other.

Hey look Amirdrassil, still no where close to equal

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/L6gq8m92yDvQhWwH?fight=1&type=damage-done&source=13

Liar
Why are you trying to pass such obvious lies?

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Using your own logs is bad

Also boj is second to fv and your not even adding the tierset which increased the power boj aka a generator in amridrasill

So again if your gonna be wrong to push a narrative for bad game design to hide your own failure as a player, do it somewhere else

Generators should have equal if not more priority than spenders

Don’t believe me? Ask any ret worth their salt in the hammer of wrath discord

I used my own logs just to show that it wasn’t just a top ranker thing.
Liar

Again if you don’t believe me then ask any other ret that’s actually good, I have no idea why your trying to die on this cruddy hill. Generators and spenders shouldn’t be so close together and generator priority shouldn’t over take spender priority

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Ummm…just curious—who defines the definition of a “good” ret paladin? :thinking:

Just a thought, instead of nerfing generators, how about moving some of the damage potential linked to wake to spenders. There is allot attached to wake these days…

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This would result in about a 12-14% buff to Ret’s single target dps. And that’s assuming Expurgation counts as “BoJ damage”. Otherwise it would be an even larger buff. Either way it would propel Ret to the best dps by a very large margin.

If you want to buff FV by 100%, Judge, CS/TS, and BoJ, needs about a ~75-80% nerf to be dps neutral.

They are sort of doing that by nerfing mini hammers. But rather than being spread throughout our kit, all that damage should have been put into spenders.

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I’m not against it but this also constitutes as another rework and other classes have been begging for one and that could cause a problem but that’s not the point. If they want to keep the baked in aspect rolling divine toll feels like a good one and it’s also the opener. Not sure how they’d keep button bloat down without taking the baked in applicators off and putting them back on buttons.

I don’t have a problem with you and I’ll start there. Typically I don’t say stuff about other people’s play styles either. But for a paladin that commonly talks about things in the wheelhouse of min maxing to have a mana increasing blasphemite in their helm while calling other people bad really takes the wind out of your sails. Especially after you hopped on the last conversation we were all having talking about simming. That’s all I’m going to say.

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I wouldnt even cite SL as the best example since SL ret was dominated by its 1min burst one shot window in divine toll/ringing clarity in season 1 and 2 and then became the “moderate non one shot damage” every 30s due to necrolords vanquisher hammer.

But I agree completely. Im the broken record that keeps repeating himself like an schizo and I will do it again.

We CANNOT have powerful strong spenders in the current iteration because

-the spec is FLOODING with holy power, art of war resets, crusading strikes, haste built into crusade that is now built into wake of ashes and even more haste from hammer of light and dawnlights.

Too much holy power means spenders are spammable, if spenders are every other global then they cant be strong.

Until the holy power economy gets reigned back, we will be stuck with current ret.

Another point is procs. Hammer of wrath has lost all its power because of how available it is. It pains me to say but, it should go back to a pure execute ability and have its procs from fv, empyrean hammers and dawnlights removed.

Highlords juddgement is another proc that just happens out of our control and could be deleted and put into spenders

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I think the value of a lot of it has changed from HP = big spenders to HP = sustainable damage. Which I’m fine with in a lot of regards if the rotation didn’t feel so clunky at times. Even with the added haste it just feels weird.

if the dude wants to get aggressive with me from the getgo after i pointed out is misinfo, then he gets the same agressive nature back. if your first response is to slander names cause you dont like the true message being said then frankly you have no place in the kitchen if you cant handle the heat

Agreed here, too many times they do something good for Paladin its at a sacrifice ironically. VERY RARELY we get a couple days where we are in S tier.
My FV should feel like a Mortal Strike not a Slam.

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If your primary experience is PVE, and the person that’s speaking is talking about PVP, your perspective will not match theirs, as there are PVP nerfs on almost every single ability, passive or active talent, and PVP talent for Ret.
This exceptionally large amount of PVP only modifiers change the math that alter the reality of playing Ret Paladin greatly.

Wanting health bars to move when you hit things is a generally understood normal expectation. When an ability that you expect to do damage hits a target, you expect to see damage.

Retribution Paladins typically expect Wake of Ashes, Execution Sentence, Hammer of Wrath, Final Verdict and Final Reckoning to each move health bars enough to see it with our own eyes. The result of these PVP modifiers and design changes provides a great very many instances of very small amounts of damage. Very high APM while having mediocre overall damage isn’t how it was in the past, so players are talking about how it was in the past.

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