I was raiding Mythic Sire denathrius and garrosh, no question of skill level when it comes to me raiding mythic, it is simply the amount of useless hoops you have to jump through to even step foot into mythic in the first place.
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Why does this only come up when we talk about heroic raid. Normal is mega useless and the guilds who stick to normal still do it. The LFR and Mythic guys aren’t constantly whining about mythic plus.
I truly think the overall community is confused about what Heroic is. It’s not the pinnacle of anything. It may be the most popular raid difficulty (for many reasons), but it’s popularity doesn’t make it prestigious or useful.
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This proves you have no idea what you’re talking about lol. 20+ keys just about everything can 1 shot you, interrupts have to be on point, tanks cannot just face tank everything, healers have to push damage, interrupt if possible and heal. You literally described low keys, but saying it doesn’t get harder is laughable.
Their is a reason only the .001% are in the MDI or else we all would be competing in that lmao
like i said, everything becomes numbers since things mostly 1 shot. You can only take X damage or deal Y damage depending on gear or class after a certain stage, nothing else really changes mechanic wise, but i guess that would prob apply to like 28+ or w/e with full 285 or something. There is somewhat strategy but half the time it is class specific which is kinda a shame over the skill , but then other healers don’t have a free kick
This is actually somewhat the opposite of how it works. Changing numbers up or down tends to necessitate new ways to handle mechanics, new builds, etc., especially if you’re at the point where you’re gear capped and effectively can only progress through making strategic or mechanics/execution adaptations.
And of course, very few people are actually gear capped. But if your only shot of upgrades is whether or not very specific dice rolls happen once a week, that’s not really a part of your strategy to get to the next level right now.
Ehhhhhh, small nitpick there. Heroic IS designed to be the end-game for any guild/community that doesn’t conform to a strictly 20-man same-realm/same-guild Mythic format - whether that’s because they’re a 10-man guild of fairly competitive friends, or a group of cross-realm people who know each other from RL, or whatever.
From the moment they actually implemented Mythic, knowing it would kill 10-man guilds or groups of any size other than 20, they were trying to assuage people that Heroic would serve some meaningful endgame for any group that no longer had the hardest mode (now Mythic) available to them. It was a very common question at that Blizzcon, cause there were a ton of 10H people attending who had basically been told their guild was now blowing up. Blizz haven’t tried to change that idea otherwise since then. Heroic isn’t some stepping stone to Mythic, it’s a fundamentally different end-game approach, and outside of some rare mingling (because there are no binaries), there isn’t any expectation of overlap or transition between Heroic and Mythic.
That’s also partly WHY it continues to have SOME “special” stuff like Ahead of the Curve. Sure, it may not qualify as “prestige” in the same way as Cutting Edge/Gladiator etc., but that’s an arbitrary distinction, one that they opted into when they switched from 10/25H to Mythic, and one that doesn’t matter much for a guild that can’t/doesn’t want to delve into Mythic (usually cause trying to do so would blow up what their guild is about).
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Tanks can absolutely face tank up to 23. Not saying there aren’t kite mechanics, like gargons in HoA, but you can generally park and tank.
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Their are many things they cannot face tank, that is why tanks hate doing M+ most of the time they kite, like those invis adds whatever they are in soa, i wanna see you face tank so you can die quick. Many pulls they have to kite, notice i didn’t say tanks can’t face tank, i said everything which is 100% correct.
The damage from those cats is a bleed. I’m a kyrian prot paladin. I can face tank them if I choose. Yes, this is a special skill of paladins, but 1 pull in SoA has some “mandatory kiting” cry about it.
You’re building up 20s to be something they aren’t. If you mean 24+, fine. I haven’t done a 24 so I’m not going to make claims about it. My first pull in gambit is 4 packs and a Goliath and I face tanked it on fort last week. Pretty sure it was a 21, but could be wrong about that.
Bonus, I have logs. You can pull up a lot of my keys and replay them and watch my little pink dot not move more than avoiding getting hit by ground effects and frontals.
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I think gearing is in a decent spot right now. Don’t kneecap m+ because some who raid feels they are entitled to better things. If you raid it should be because you love the epic fights in a larger team and the sense of mutual accomplishment. If you’re only doing it for gear, then I’d reevaluate why you’re doing it. Some of us who don’t raid because it is too time consuming (esp if you’re a parent) like m+ the way it is.
This is perhaps the best comment here. The sheer credentials you need to have before getting into somewhere that’s actually worth your time makes Mythic Raiding very unattractive for many.
Also I note that you were actually working on end bosses too, which is great! The majority of wannabe mythic raiders are going to be stuck working on mid tier bosses pretty much the entire patch, that kind of work for such little reward isn’t worth it imho.
I wouldn’t say it’s useless. It is the most realistic stepping stone before one can start Mythic raiding. Without logged kills on heroic, you won’t be an attractive candidate for many lower end Mythic raiding groups. It’s a dumb first step imo though, you really need to get into Heroic just to get the logs and have the kill count the raid lead wants to see.
The biggest problem that M+ has for Heroic raiders is the time required. A lot of people do Heroic because it is flexible and easy to get into with their limited time. And that is the same reason they may also choose to do M+ instead.
With limited time it becomes binary, does the player raid or M+ with the five to eight hours they’ll login this week?
The problem is that raiding isn’t rewarding, compared to the difficulty and time involved.
As early as Mythic Dausegne/Xymox in Sepulcher (so the 3rd boss) you’re already hitting bosses that are way, way, WAY harder than +20 keys. Like, not even close, 20’s are WAY easier. But you don’t even have to get close to +20 keys to get equal rewards to Mythic raid bosses, you only have to do 15’s. Which are trivial.
Double the loot drop rate from raid bosses.
Increase the ilvl in more stages, and earlier. Put that 285 gear on Mythic Lihuvim/Halondrus/Anduin. Increase the 3 after that even higher.
Award the 278 conduit package after beating Mythic Anduin, not Mythic Jailer.
Have skips be on a PER BOSS basis (kill the boss 4 times, you can skip it afterwards) to cut down on the huge rekill time tax.
There are SO MANY things that need to be done to bring raiding in tune with the rest of the game. It’s an archaic 17 year old system that people want to do, but Blizzard is just too occupied with making raiding a pain in the butt, for some reason.
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To be fair, killing 2 mythic bosses a week gives you a chance at 285 gear, something that m+ does not. You get a 278 piece plus a shot at a bunch of 262 gear. I still like the idea that I mentioned earlier with heroic giving 278 gear and mythic just giving a higher quantity with it being more of a prestige event kind of like how 16-30+ m+ is right now, but the argument that m+ is some giant loot piñata is pretty redundant. Now that valor is uncapped, if you’ve spammed keys all season you should be pretty set up by this point, but mythic raiders still get 7 ilvl on the m+ community and a lot of times better trinkets and weapons. It’s still beneficial for people who prefer raiding to do m+ and vice versa so the argument to a point is moot. The only people who can really argue are the heroic raiders who cap out at 272 unless they do m+ as well for the boost in ilvl every week.
Sorely disagree with this. It’s already been discussed to death that the ‘raid or die’ mentality is outdated and detrimental to the games success. Giving an extra 7 ilvl is acceptable. Going higher than that…I wouldn’t be opposed to all bosses being 285 but I still think it should be more of a prestige thing like high end m+ where the gear was a means to an end than the actual end game.
IMO, this should be given out at lower brackets to all 3 pillars. AotC / KSM for example. Conduits shouldn’t be that hard to max out.
You can save lockouts, but altogether I think this is a good idea.
Agreed here too. I’m still not 100% sure I’m even going to raid next tier and try out fated.
You can’t get 285 gear without killing the guys after Anduin.
(I should specify, reliably. I know somebody who got a 285 but my tier chest that came from vault’s raid row was only 278. So /shrug.)
To be fair, those aren’t “equal” rewards, at least not in all aspects.
If you’re killing 2 Mythic bosses, that’s 2 Mythic bosses where there are guaranteed drops being split among the raid, then each player getting 1 guaranteed piece in the Vault.
For anyone doing at least +15’s, they can get 1 Vault piece per week. They can do more work to choose among pieces, but they can only ever get 1 Vault piece.
Now, there’s going to be variance based on useful loot, RNG of what drops, what doesn’t, etc., but the end result is going to be about 50% more loot for the raid group. That bumps way up the more bosses you’re killing, since every boss you kill is more guaranteed loot spread among the raid, but there’s nothing a person who’s doing only M+ can do to get the option for more items than the Vault limits them to (except to start raiding).
Stuff like this was even seen in tier. Raids can have guaranteed tier pieces drop. Everyone else was waiting on the RNG of 1 chance/week, at least until the Catalyst opened and gave enough charges.
Loot isn’t the issue with raids, and most definitely not Mythic raids. There’s simply no other avenue that’s actually more rewarding when bosses are dying. With some of the Season 4 changes and the guaranteed weapons/trinkets and upgrades, it’s going to be even more so.
The actual issue lies more in the barrier for entry, the lockout systems, the tuning and time expectations, guild killer bosses, etc. Some of those may be made easier in 9.2.5 with cross-faction (and cross-realm), but that has a limited meaning to many raiding guilds.
M+ also gives infinite quantities of 272 gear.
We’re 7/11 Mythic in Sepulcher, but 8 pieces of gear I’m wearing are from M+, plus 2 pieces from M+ that I turned into tier for a grand total of TEN pieces of M+ gear. Compared to 4 pieces I actually got from raiding.
M+ players have a bizarre and incorrect imagination regarding how much loot raid teams get. And frankly, I’m sick and tired of hearing these tall tales.
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Which is 13 ilvls below max.
I applaud the attempt, but the shallow loot pool of raid almost necessitates this. Raid would be worse if it dropped every itemization. The only reason m+ can drop as many unique items as it does is the spammability.
You would always have some players with more loot from dungeons for this reason, so it doesn’t make your point at all. Unless, of course, you’re advocating for each boss to have a 15 item loot pool, but it’s clear you just want “raid or die” gearing.
M+ does not give infinite amounts of 272, at least until the Valor cap is lifted like it just recently was, and that only happens once content is deemed obsolete. It can give more than the raid weekly lockout of chances at 262 gear if you have infinite time, with some upgradeable to 272 behind a seasonally-capped resource, but that’s not Mythic quality anyway. It’s technically not even Heroic quality until it’s upgraded.
The chances of that gear which ends up dropping being useful are just as poor as the chances of raid gear being useful. Perhaps even worse, since an M+ end-of-dungeon chest is pooling from the entire dungeon (so anywhere from 1/6 to 1/11 for any specific piece, once you’re the one being awarded loot), compared to raid (often 1/3 to 1/5 for any specific piece, once you’re the one being awarded loot).
Like, I get your frustration. The current way raid loot drops and gets spread among the raid is pretty bad, and especially when you’re starting out is at the lowest rate of acquisition and ramps up. M+ does the opposite, where you effectively hit your limit pretty early but can’t increase that, just add more dice rolls. But it’s a bit disingenuous to make it sound worse.
napkin math
If you do a 9-hour raid week to get those 7 bosses down, you’re getting 4 drops per boss, and each person is getting 1 item from Vault. That’s 48 Mythic-quality items dropping.
If you were to take those 9 hours and spend it in Mythic+, you’ll get quite a lot of 262 items (my rough math is 80), and exactly 20 Mythic-quality items. With the Valor from those dungeons, each person can probably upgrade anywhere from 2-4 items to 272 (9 hours, average time of 33 mins would mean 16 dungeons, so just over 2k Valor seems a fairish assumption). When content was relevant and Valor was capped, you couldn’t do that, it’d be on average ~0.75-1.5 items upgraded to 272 (since Valor/week capped at 750). But Mythic raids will always give you more 278 items to split among the raid, and that will only increase as you kill more bosses. If anything, over time, more and more of those 262’s will be worthless, and you’ll be replacing 272 items with 278’s for M+. Getting more bosses in Mythic raid will add more tier, 285s which M+ can’t get in any way, etc., so it should have the opposite effect.
No, it’s not, because max for almost everyone in the game is 278. That’s why everyone else caps out at 278. That’s why Mythic raiders - including people who reliably get Cutting Edge - cap out in 285 in most slots, and in all slots for all of progression.
M+ 272 is the mainstay for Mythic raiding progression; it’s why so many of us wear so much of it. Because the game is designed around M+ gearing, these days. Which is absurd.