Does M+ Hurt Raiding: A Discussion

Mythic raider, at least the top end, would do it if there was no gear. The gear is a means to an end. The end is completing the content.

I know this is flipped in the lower brackets. Playing for gear just isn’t how everyone approaches the game.


These are begging the question. WoW is not a game that’s (at least any longer) trying to prop up raiding at the expense of other game modes. For now, the three endgame modes Blizzard is supposedly trying to keep somewhat equal are Rated PvP, Raiding, and Mythic+. The idea that raiding deserves or needs to flex* on others leaves questions of why, and what purpose it serves?

If you feel that raiding can only be viable and exist by cannibalising and keeping other modes and other playerbases down (e.g. Mythic+), potentially taking away from content as well as driving players/customers of those modes away, is it even worth being propped up?

*And even Mythic raiding is a wide spectrum. There’s a large difference between people in the Hall of Fame, and people who can field warm bodies with a pulse to kill intro bosses like Vigilant Guardian. It’s kinda hard to justify that oneshotting an easy intro boss for Mythic loot is a flex-worthy achievement over +15, +20, +30, and any highest level in an infinite scaling mode. There’s quite obviously some point where that 5-man dungeon is a more impressive achievement than rolling over a loot pinata (people will argue where that point is, but it has to exist), and saying the latter deserves a better reward is just ridiculous.

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Is that a pro or a con? Sounds like a pro to me. We SHOULD have a diverse end game.

Ksm isn’t comparable to CE. Thats why mythic raiders not only get higher ilvl gear but they get it faster. In the comparison you’re bringing m+ tops out at 262 until valor gets uncapped.

The best M+ Players I know are CE raiders. Both game types are great and neither one hurts the other. If anything, they compliment each other and give the player more options to enjoy the game. I wish I had the time to do mythic raid progression, but I have too many kids. I can’t pull out of a driveway!!

They should simply allow raid gear to be upgraded at this point.

This is, in fact, one of their Season 4 changes.

Specifically the Heroic & Mythic Upgrade Items section.

Yeah I think it definitely does hurt raiding.

I’d wager that there is less raid participation now than in any other tier in the last 3 expansions, at the least. I know that if I’m looking to upgrade my 252 tier piece to 272, I’m going to just valor upgrade my +15 item and use the catalyst.

It all depends on the content you want to do. If raiding is a fun activity for you, you’re going to raid. You’ll even do m+ or pvp to enhance your ability to raid. If you want to do m+, you’ll raid or pvp to enhance your ability to do m+, same applies for pvp. It’s hard to say that any of these pillars hurt the other because they all compliment each other. You can get a slightly inflated ilvl in pvp while you’re ranking up by doing keys, however when you start pushing further and further into it your ranked up pvp gear is going to get you where you want to be. Same thing for raiding, you can use the other pillars to inflate your ilvl a little bit to help you kill some bosses, but at the end of the day the loot from mythic Anduin to Jailer aside from some trinkets is going to be better than anything from m+. If you’re wanting to do m+, you’re going to run the raid because some of the trinkets are the best you have on offer plus the higher ilvl rewards can help you push higher.

Raid participation drops because either people have gotten as far as they care to in the raid, gotten what they want out of it, or have completely brick walled and given up. There’s no reason to keep pushing beyond those points. There are going to be people who push the raid all tier long either for alts or for parses, but raiding will always drop off faster than what m+ or pvp will.

The more I think on it, perhaps raiding should have some kind of score as well based on how fast you kill a boss, and the higher the score the higher you can upgrade gear, much like m+. I think that would be an interesting way to keep raid engagement up.

After a certain threshold , tho, M+ doesn’t really get ’ harder’ its just numbers. If you got the gear to push out the numbers to aoe etc enough damage out its just almost how far your itemlevel can carry you.
Tanks don’t ‘tank’ you do everything to avoid any tank damage more or less, then its just which heals can do more dps, which has the best stuns and slows, and so forth.

I’d say the overwhelming majority of people raiding want the gear and possibly the AOTC mount.

Heroic level raiding is in a useless spot. Aside from wanting aotc, there is no point in running it. Mythic plus provides more gear with less effort and its depressing. I hope blizz incentivizes raiding in coming patches. I’m in a guild where we preferred raiding all together rather than breaking off into 5 man cliques and leaving each other out. Something not right for sure.

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Given that Aotc and KSM tend to have similar completion % it may be better o have gear just cap there at 265/272.

Then > +15 keys and mythic raids can be for cosmetics and achievements.

It’s kinda crazy mythic+ gives mythic level and end heroic boss level loot for mid heroic boss level difficulty.

I think there is an argument that mythic raids are way too hard and inaccessible to be a source of gear.

I’d agree with this argument. I do think mythic is the most fun version of raiding, from my time doing it in BFA. But it feels wholly inaccessible to me nowadays and it may be time to relax the precision level.


Everything in the game can contribute to gear acquisition, but if you had to do something you hated to do, would you still be actively playing?

I actually think this is a great idea. To grow on it, have mythic raid give out double the quantity instead of quality as further incentive to try and progress, but I think they would improve a lot of things if the incentive to do things were the fun / challenge / prestige more than the gear itself. Kind of how m+ 15’s is the gear cap, I think for consistency sake heroic would be a great place to cap as well.

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I was raiding Mythic Sire denathrius and garrosh, no question of skill level when it comes to me raiding mythic, it is simply the amount of useless hoops you have to jump through to even step foot into mythic in the first place.

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Why does this only come up when we talk about heroic raid. Normal is mega useless and the guilds who stick to normal still do it. The LFR and Mythic guys aren’t constantly whining about mythic plus.

I truly think the overall community is confused about what Heroic is. It’s not the pinnacle of anything. It may be the most popular raid difficulty (for many reasons), but it’s popularity doesn’t make it prestigious or useful.


This proves you have no idea what you’re talking about lol. 20+ keys just about everything can 1 shot you, interrupts have to be on point, tanks cannot just face tank everything, healers have to push damage, interrupt if possible and heal. You literally described low keys, but saying it doesn’t get harder is laughable.

Their is a reason only the .001% are in the MDI or else we all would be competing in that lmao

like i said, everything becomes numbers since things mostly 1 shot. You can only take X damage or deal Y damage depending on gear or class after a certain stage, nothing else really changes mechanic wise, but i guess that would prob apply to like 28+ or w/e with full 285 or something. There is somewhat strategy but half the time it is class specific which is kinda a shame over the skill , but then other healers don’t have a free kick

This is actually somewhat the opposite of how it works. Changing numbers up or down tends to necessitate new ways to handle mechanics, new builds, etc., especially if you’re at the point where you’re gear capped and effectively can only progress through making strategic or mechanics/execution adaptations.

And of course, very few people are actually gear capped. But if your only shot of upgrades is whether or not very specific dice rolls happen once a week, that’s not really a part of your strategy to get to the next level right now.

Ehhhhhh, small nitpick there. Heroic IS designed to be the end-game for any guild/community that doesn’t conform to a strictly 20-man same-realm/same-guild Mythic format - whether that’s because they’re a 10-man guild of fairly competitive friends, or a group of cross-realm people who know each other from RL, or whatever.

From the moment they actually implemented Mythic, knowing it would kill 10-man guilds or groups of any size other than 20, they were trying to assuage people that Heroic would serve some meaningful endgame for any group that no longer had the hardest mode (now Mythic) available to them. It was a very common question at that Blizzcon, cause there were a ton of 10H people attending who had basically been told their guild was now blowing up. Blizz haven’t tried to change that idea otherwise since then. Heroic isn’t some stepping stone to Mythic, it’s a fundamentally different end-game approach, and outside of some rare mingling (because there are no binaries), there isn’t any expectation of overlap or transition between Heroic and Mythic.

That’s also partly WHY it continues to have SOME “special” stuff like Ahead of the Curve. Sure, it may not qualify as “prestige” in the same way as Cutting Edge/Gladiator etc., but that’s an arbitrary distinction, one that they opted into when they switched from 10/25H to Mythic, and one that doesn’t matter much for a guild that can’t/doesn’t want to delve into Mythic (usually cause trying to do so would blow up what their guild is about).


Tanks can absolutely face tank up to 23. Not saying there aren’t kite mechanics, like gargons in HoA, but you can generally park and tank.

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