That was a turn of phrase used to segue into my counter point that Demon Hunters are not some stupid simple 2 button spec. like you implied by pointing out that the class you used to post with is in fact an easier class to play with less abilities actually used.
If you play another class and think Demon Hunter is not complex, you are most likely not playing the other class properly is also a point I’d say unless you’re on an Enhance Shaman which does in fact appear to be very complex.
As someone that does Dev. work on the side, if I were a Dev. and taking something out of this thread it would be that Enhance Shamans need some pruning not that Demon Hunters need more buttons.
I personally would rather see other classes made to play more like the Demon Hunter and less like the Enhance Shaman.
I was asking my wife about her Shaman, she really likes all that fluff fluff for no better damage. I personally like that my DH does decent but flat DPS at the start, middle, and end of the fight due to the static action priority.
So is it more that you want to have burst components where you do significantly more DPS after building up to the ‘big moment?’
Grass is always greener on the other side. If you want more complicated go roll an outlaw rogue. Outlaw rogues complain their is too much bloat and spam, come play demon hunter.
We need options for both ends to fit everyone’s playstyle. Don’t build the spec around the player. Should be appreciative there are playstyles for all ranges of players.
Enhancement Shamans are busy. I main Enhancement but when I tank its on dh. I like both classes Enhancement is a very busy spec.
And no Enhancement does not need pruning they actually only partially reverted us back to what we used to be in Mop and Mop was pruned down from Cata as they removed most of our totems. On my Shaman I am wanting a few more things returned including our totems.
Havoc has had a very mediocre, boring design since its inception. There’s little rotational nuance, and several talents should’ve become baseline years ago. It’s mind-boggling how First Blood and Demonic aren’t baseline at the very least. Blizz really took Metamorphosis away from Warlocks, who used it as part of their core rotation, just to give it to DH who only uses it once every 4 minutes unless you take a specific talent, and even then it doesn’t impact your gameplay in a meaningful way. Essence Break is alright, but it shouldn’t have to compete with First Blood. Why does Eye Beam lock you in place? Pretty silly for a class that’s all about being hyper-mobile (same thing with Monk’s Chi Burst).
Momentum is there to add some rotational complexity, but it’s a bad kind of complexity. Movement abilities should be for movement, not DPS.
Are you trolling? We don’t need any more specs as simple as Havoc. Part of why Subtlety is neat is because of its extremely high skill ceiling. It’s nowhere near as well designed as it was in MoP, but it’s a step up from what it was in Legion and BfA, and that’s partly due to Slice and Dice’s return. Complexity is what makes classes interesting.
Havoc definitely needs something. Maybe it doesn’t need a full on rework, but at the very least, certain talents need to become baseline. I think it would be neat if Havoc were reworked to play like a melee Spriest from Legion. You enter Metamorph, and stay in it for as long as you can while the form becomes increasingly hard to maintain. The longer you stay in it, the more haste you get, and you’d need to prioritize abilities that would keep you in it as long as possible. Maybe stall the Fury drain when CC’d so it wouldn’t feel bad in pvp. Just an idea.
I like the idea of demon hunters that train super hard and constantly battle with fel powers to remain in control of themselves. Additionally I’ve loved warglaives since I saw my first huntress in Warcraft 3.
I dislike the actual gameplay of the class though, as it often feels incomplete. I cant be the only person that has hit all everything on VDH and am AAing waiting my next fracture’s cd. Demon hunter feels like it has a very low learning curve but also a very low skill ceiling, which in my opinion is a disservice to both the lore and players that want to invest time into really learning a class.
Core abilities to the spec should not be talented (spirit bomb, fracture, demonic). The souls system was a novel idea in legion but desperately needs a revision. It is great that I can build souls infinite but having skills (spirit bomb) that consume all souls for no extra benefit is frustrating.
It shouldn’t be the case that are our offensive abilities are also our defensive abilities (Fel Devastation, Searing Brand). This at first glance is seems like a way to give players meaningful choice but every VDH knows that you its either you hit everything on CD or save everything cuz the boss hits like a truck. Splitting some of these abilities I think would go a long way for the class.
Regarding our defenses, we feel terribly soft in comparison to the other leather wearing tanks (druid / monk). I dont think we should be using DH’s mobility as also part of their defensive kit. Demon spikes uptime is too low and the previously mentioned issues of offensive/defensive skills shows up again here. I would like to use Fel Dev but if I mistime a Demon spikes i may need Fel Dev to save the run or need to hold back on using meta.
Finally we have a lack of customization in demon form, meta is horribly ugly and I wish we got more options. ESPECIALLY if you play vengeance, use meta and glide. Whom ever though that giving meta a green grow was a good idea instead of giant versions of our dh normal mode wings was very very wrong.
No one said specs like Subtlety should be the rule, but Havoc could sure use more complexity. There’s nothing interesting about this bland, faceroll rotation. People used to pick on BM Hunter for being braindead, but even it has some real depth to its rotation now, and it’s still easy. There never should’ve been a spec easier than it.
Sounds horrendous that you’d get to use Metamorph in a meaningful way as part of your baseline rotation? It would be a lot better than the current design of “press button once every 4 minutes unless you take a talent, but your gameplay still won’t become interesting.”
Well spoken. I remember being so excited for Illidan’s return and the DH class when Legion was announced, only to be massively disappointed when the hype died down and I realized how mediocre this class’ design is.
Yes I think all classes should have relatively the same level of complexity even if they don’t have the same task set.
In that way the encounter design can be improved so that the complexity of the game is in the encounter mechanics not in executing a slightly more complex script of attacks.
Note: This doesn’t mean I think we’re perfect or could not use some changes. Two things can be true.
Hard disagree. A lot of people enjoy specs like Subtlety, Outlaw, Enhancement, etc precisely because they have higher skill caps and more to manage than other specs. Bringing everything else down to the level of specs like Havoc would be a terrible move. There’s nothing about this spec’s rotation that makes you think about what you’re doing, and that’s bad. BM Hunter used to be the spec everyone picked on because of how braindead it was, but even it has more rotational depth than Havoc now. Based on your above post, it sounds like your wife is the kind of person who enjoys Enhancement’s higher skill ceiling, and that’s great.
That’s more due to the strength of Sinful Brand and the weakness of all our talented abilities than it is due to basics of the class.
I haven’t played a Rogue since Wrath, so I don’t really know how difficult they are now, but I don’t recall building combo points to 5 being all that different from building Fury to 120.
No, just as there are many people who like complexity there are people who don’t like it, it’s perfectly fine to have simple classes. For me it is appropriate that there is a mix of difficulties between the different classes, if you want something more complex, play another class
That said, I wouldn’t mind if the DH has a little more game, but I think that should be through talent and not from the base.
No, because Havoc’s rotation is mindless with or without Sinful Brand. This didn’t suddenly begin in Shadowlands.
And you’ve totally forgotten Rogues needing to maintaining Slice and Dice and Rupture, pooling energy for burst, setting up Shadow Dance windows, Kidney Shotting priority mobs so your group can benefit from Prey on the Weak, knowing when to use Vanish offensively or defensively as needed, and choosing your opener from Stealth?
Rogue has always had loads more to think about than DH, and it’s a better class for it. Not that every class needs to be complex, but Havoc is straight up bland and disappointing.
Havoc’s talent tree is out of whack. It’s a wonder why talents like First Blood and Demonic aren’t baseline at least. Then I could take something like Essence Break, which would promote pooling Fury before EB windows. Would be nice addition to the rotation. I wouldn’t mind if the Bloodlet talent from Legion returned.
Survival Hunter suffers from the same thing, where certain talents that need to be baseline already (Mongoose Bite, Wildfire Infusion) are still stuck on the talent tree.
True, but right now we can’t speculate or say anything about the talent tree until we get our first look at the new DH talent tree.
The purpose with which I created this thread is to see how satisfied we are as a community, if the class forums are still taken into account, the discontent and the request for a rework could reach the Devs and we’ll see if it changes once we have the first DH sketches for DF, that’s when we should quickly start giving feedback.
Why does no one play it then? On the DPS ranking chart 16413 Havoc Demon Hunters appear in the logs scanned, while combined all three specs of Rogue only have 15,031.
Rogue has three dps specs to choose from, whereas DH has only one. If you think 15,031 people is “no one” compared to 16,413, then I don’t even know what to say.
