Fair. I’d argue that’s wasted though.
I’ll just wait and start eating popcorn when half the wanna-be sweat boxes can’t tank Patchwerk.
Hell I’ve watched a ton of videos where the heals can’t keep them up on Twins already. So it’s getting there.
He got unlucky RNG, only 20% crit rate. His Skeram fight he averaged 1.4k because he crit 50% of the time. That’s what the term average means.
With world buffs it would average out around 1k for the vast majority of fury/prot tanks (or higher). Fully buffed up, I’m just shy of 2k attack and I’m at ~33% crit, and there are certainly many tanks with better gear than I have.
Blood thirst average damage = attack * 0.4 * (1 + crit %)
2000 * 0.4 * 1.33 = 1064.
threat = damage * 1.495 = 1591
Shield slam average damage = ((350 + block value) * (1 + crit %))
(350 + 75) * 1.33 = 565
shield slam threat = (shield slam damage + 250) * 1.495 = 1218
Throw in a diamond flask, a crusader proc or two, and a jom gabbar and the discrepancy only grows wider.
The damage and threat from bloodthirst scales linearly with attack power and with increases in crit. The damage from shield slam barely increases with large increases in strength (1 point increase for every 20 points of strength), increases linearly with crit, but most of its damage is static. On top of that, a significant portion of the threat is also a static value.
Shield slam damage increases by 0.05 point for every point of strength. Bloodthirst damage increases by 0.8 point for every point of strength and also increases by 0.4 with with every point of raw attack power
It just doesn’t scale as well. The very convenient thing about deep prot (when you don’t have awesome gear and high levels of attack and crit) is the static nature of the threat generation. The very inconvenient thing about deep prot (when you and/or your raid DOES have awesome gear and high levels of attack and crit) is the static nature of the threat generation.
Yes, fury prot became a common spec specifically to take advantage of world buff stacking.
On Skeram he has nearly every world buff and crits a lot.
During Naxxramas progression, most guilds most of the time won’t have world buffs. A prot warrior won’t be hurting them at all.
If you’re trying to speed run and usually have world buffs or are doing pre-Naxxramas content it would make sense to be fury prot.
Progression lasts a day. Our first twins was 8 minutes, our second was 4 minutes and now our most recent is 2 minutes.
Edit: OK, closer to 3 minutes. Check this space soon.
now our most recent is 2 minutes.
That’s pretty impressive, considering there’s only three kills on warcraftlogs with a Twin Emperors kill under 2m30s.
Impale should add 20% to the value of shield slam crits here right?
Incidently, I just went into gearplanner on wowhead and with a few of the dreadnaught pieces from early Naxxramas and styleens equipped you can get block value to around 200. I’m not sure that bloodthirst gains anything comparable from early Naxxramas gear.
So it could be around (350+200) * 1.396 = 767.8
767.8 + 250 * 1.495 = 1,522.
Bloodthirst damage will fall off significantly when world buffs drop, correct? Whereas that block value will stay almost the same.
If you actually go crazy with Naxxramas gear you can get block value up to 300 with an on-use 235 block value for 20 seconds. That would be a 2,220 threat shield slam.
3 Likes
lol what. You mean the same serious raiding guilds that were competing for world and server firsts? Things didn’t work that way. We didn’t even share strats.
This. No world buffs and fury prot falls apart
Wrong.
What happens if the fury prot dies during the raid and loses their wbuff? They still tank the raid.
How people can post this kind of nonsense with zero facts behind them is absolutely beyond me. It’s not like you can just…LOOK IT UP ON WCL?
You’re delusional. An AQ geared tank heading into naxx will have 30%+ crit without world buffs. To put it as plainly as possible, Shield Slam does not directly scale with anything except block value. Yes, it can crit, yes, Impale will boost that crit damage, but it is completely unaffected by AP in any way. Bloodthirst scales. That’s why fury prot is outright superior for threat under any circumstance. Flurry is the largest TPS boost to HS spam in the talent trees. Enrage is an outright better damage buff. The utility of swapping to DW for extra threat and then swapping to shield to have every bit the same inherent mitigation of deep prot is why fury prot is an outright superior raid spec.
The better the gear, the bigger the gap between fury prot and deep prot. Deep prot is for new tanks with very little gear; it’s a spec that fills in the gaps with flat amounts of threat and utility.
Consider what you’re saying when you spout off “fury prot is only better with world buffs”. What are world buffs? They’re stat boosts. What is AQ/Naxx gear compared to BWL gear? It’s stat boosts. The gap between BWL and AQ gear is large, and the gap between BWL and Naxx gear is massive. Without any world buffs and only AQ gear entering into Naxx, fury prot has better threat generation, more options to generate threat with a DW swap and Deathwish (which you’re happy to ignore exists), and loses ZERO mitigation
Stop giving people bad information. Deep prot is outscaled at the end of BWL.
1 Like
Also to add here, impale only adds 20% to the EXTRA critical strike damage, it’s not a flat +20% damage to your crit, it’s only +20% of the extra damage the crit adds to your normal attack. I’m not saying this eloquently hope you understand what I mean.
They’d have to do more than just remove world buffs though.
I’ve had wipes in a raid with world buffs. Everyone dies, no world buffs.
Fights are still absurdly fast. World buffs help immensely, but this is still a different game just because of fury/prot speccing.
Yes. It makes your crits do 220% of regular damage instead of 200. AKA a 10% damage boost on your crits.
Twin Emps is strictly a gear check. Tanks really don’t understand the value of defensive gear for that fight. Patchwerk is a fight that you can’t wear offensive gear on. Twin Emps is a fight that you shouldn’t wear offensive gear on.
This is demonstrably wrong. A prot spec has at least six more talent points to put into toughness and deflection. Minor? Sure. Zero? Not the case.
and the gap between BWL and Naxx gear is massive.
Conqueror’s Battlegear is a pretty huge upgrade on BWL stuff but have you looked at Naxxramas gear? There’s not really a lot of huge threat upgrades for warriors in the early bit. Dreadnaught mostly has a crap ton of block value and defence on it. Girdle of the mentor is pretty equal to Onslaught Girdle. Legplates of Carnage I guess?
What are world buffs? They’re stat boosts. What is AQ/Naxx gear compared to BWL gear? It’s stat boosts.
World buffs grossly outweigh any upgrades from gear, as you well know. Scaling goes completely haywire when you add 340 attack power (worth what, 170 str? When was the last time you got 170 strength from a gear upgrade?), 15%+15 stats and 10% crit (the sum of all the gear you wear on Twin Emperors gives 9% crit).
If you look at your last raid on Twin Emperors (yes here I go log scouring again) your average bloodthirst drops from 943 to 532 when world buffs fall off.
532 x 1.495 = 795 threat per bloodthirst. If you were protection with styleens your block value would be ~107. Your average threat per shield slam (assuming a 25% crit rate) would be (350+107) x 1.275 = 582 582 + 250 = 832 832 x 1.495 = 1,244.
You’re actually losing 449 threat every 6 seconds vs shield slam. Feel free to correct me if I’m mathing wrong.
You’re gaining 3.6% threat from enrage at a 12% uptime (well 6% uptime, but only tanking half the time because it’s Twin Emperors). You’re also gaining 12% more from your autoattacks from a 40% flurry uptime but losing 10% from not having one handed specialization. You’re also losing 10% damage 25% of the time from not having impale.
Technically, you’re also losing the parry haste from less points in deflection. And getting parried more often because of flurry, increasing damage taken.
Maybe I’m delusional, but that sounds roughly equal to me.
Why are you looking at twin emps? The twin emps fight favors stacking mitigation gear because of unbalancing strike.
Why are you comparing my fury prot to some other tank’s deep prot as opposed to my own deep prot? You’re putting two numbers together that don’t prove anything about the other. You have to find the same player with the access to the same gear doing the same fight in both specs. Then you compare those numbers. I’m not losing anything compared to random deep prot parse you’re referencing. You hack.
Let’s put world buffs into perspective real quick. Only the ZG buff, the health buff from DMN, and the haste from Rend buff scale in any way; and DMF if it’s available. The flat boosts from dragonslayer, songflower, and moldar’s moxie all make relatively less of an impact on player parses as the gear gets better. An extra 120 or 200 ap, or 10% crit during phase 1 in MC is the same flat boost during phase 6 in Naxx. Yet, despite that the world buffs make a relatively smaller impact as gear scales, fury prot still holds a giant threat lead over deep prot as that gear gets better.
Did you add “in the early bit” so you can cherry pick spider quarter loot that isn’t BiS for tanks? Naxx has immense upgrades for all classes, including fury prot. What a useless and stupid thing to say.
Why are you looking at twin emps? The twin emps fight favors stacking mitigation gear because of unbalancing strike.
That should be obvious. We’re talking about the viability of protection in Naxxramas. Naxxramas has a whole bunch of fights like that that favour defensive stats. Maexxna, Loatheb, Patchwerk, Four Horsemen, Sapphiron, Kel’Thuzad heck even Faerlina since the dps starts on the adds and she can land 8k crits when frenzied.
I’m not losing anything compared to random deep prot parse you’re referencing. You hack.
I’m referencing you, in your equipped gear with styleen’s impeding scarab (which I assume you’d equip if you were deep prot) and elementium reinforced bulwark, which you are using. If you were specced protection instead of fury.
Your block value would be ~107. 54+19+24 + 10 from STR.
You would, on average, gain 449 threat every 6 seconds if you had shield slam instead of bloodthirst. Unless I’m mathing incorrectly?
Edit: Actually I think I did math slightly wrong. With boss armour you’re actually only losing 318 threat every 6 seconds.
You’re piecing together a shield slam threat value that never existed during that encounter from presumed values on my gear. You’re then taking that value and placing in a vacuum next to my bloodthirst values, ignoring all other sources of threat generation, to conclude that I’m losing threat by being fury prot over deep prot. Melee is ignored. Heroic Strike is ignored. Revenge is ignored. My entire sheet of dps/TPS is ignored to pit my real Bloodthirst values against a hypothesized Shield Slam value which never occurred in game because I wasn’t playing that spec for that fight.
How dense and daft and all the rest do you have to be to not understand the horrendous flaw in your analysis, in your argument, and in your conclusions. I am truly baffled by the sheer ineptitude of your mind.
1 Like
pulls out a moonstone
Perhaps you simply missed reading my post so I’ll quote it for you.
"You’re gaining 3.6% threat from enrage at a 12% uptime (well 6% uptime, but only tanking half the time because it’s Twin Emperors). You’re also gaining 12% more from your autoattacks from a 40% flurry uptime but losing 10% from not having one handed specialization. You’re also losing 10% damage on abilities 25% of the time from not having impale.
Technically, you’re also losing the parry haste from less points in deflection. And getting parried more often because of flurry, increasing damage taken."
You also missed that I said in strictly shield slam vs bloodthirst terms, you’re losing threat in that situation.
I also said
“Maybe I’m delusional, but that sounds roughly equal to me.”
Revenge is ignored.
You’ll have to explain to me how fury gains threat over protection from revenge.
I doubt very much you’ll do any such thing though, since all you seem interested in doing is trying to bully people with personal attacks instead of discussing the game. As usual.
You’ve completely ignored total tps to focus on my Bloodthirst threat values against fabricated shield slam threat values, and then said it means something. It’s a joke. You’re clown shoes.