Does Arthas deserve a "happy" ending?

It’s honestly not even just a matter of overcoming her pride. Garrosh was prideful and narrow-minded to a fault, while Vashj as a night elf and as a naga was proven to be a consummate ladder-climber, meaning she was tailor-made for an environment like Maldraxxus and never so entrenched in the rightness of her own actions that she wouldn’t change things up for a better way to get ahead.

In a weird way, there’s a certain realist humility grounded in seeing one’s life and opportunities as determined by the rules and expectations of systems larger than oneself, and therefore accepting that since you don’t make the rules, the way to get ahead is to play by them better than everyone else. On Azeroth she played by Azshara’s and Illidan’s rules to get where she got, and now in Maldraxxus she plays the same game by the rules she encountered there.

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My only point is, given the chance/opportunity Arthas could still choose destruction just like Garrosh. Arthas was already evil before having his soul tampered with by Frostmorne/Zovaal, cdev literally describes him as an evil paladin able to wield the light. If his pre-Frostmourne and post-Frostmourne soul was to have a conversation it will be a conversation between two evil Arthas’ if that makes any sense. I’m not saying that if given the chance he can’t atone/repent, but he will have a long road ahead of him considering he was evil pre-Frostmourne.

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People keep assuming arthas even WANTS to repent. A single Is it over father? doesn’t necessarily mean he regretted anything he did. People tend to forget that every choice arthas made, he did so largely of his own free will.

I don’t know many people in fiction who regret their actions by literally cutting their own heart out to be rid of their good self

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Assuming that his situation is similar to Sylvanas and Uther, if given the opportunity, would he want to restore his soul considering that both pre and post Frostmourne halves are evil?

In terms of simple math:

Pre Frostmourne Evil Arthas + Post Frostmourne Evil Arthas = ?

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We have another source that tell us that sylvanas was allways evil…i would not beliefe this

The same apply to arthas

Except we know slyvanas wasn’t always evil. Arthas was

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If there is a source that says pre Frostmourne Sylvanas was evil I would like to see it. If pre Frostmourne Sylvanas was evil I will concede the points I made in previous posts.

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The 9.2 datamined sylvanas cinematic with her and uther contradicts his claim though about her always being evil

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Sylvanas == Arthas. Their stories are equal.
Of course Arthas story is much deeper and was written by way more professional writers than those deletants who wrote Sylvanas. But the main idea of their stories is the same.

So if Sylvanas got redemption arc and will return to the Horde, then same thing should be with Arthas. If not, than Blizzard once again will proof that they are totally Horde bias…

Yeah… no.

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My perspective of Arthas was always sympathetic. He really didn’t do anything I wouldn’t have done prior to picking up Frostmourn. We can villainize him for how he treated his mercenaries, but honestly, I question the character of any person who wouldn’t do the same, if a gun was pointed to their family’s head.

In Arthas’ case… That really was his situation. If he did not give his soldiers a reason to stay and fight and defeat the scourge once and for all in Northrend, then Lordaeron was finished. I never saw Arthas’ fate as a product of his own actions, but as a victim of a diabolical plot by his enemies.

This might have been what Blizzard was trying to do with Sylvanas in BFA and Shadowlands. The problem is… well, there are a lot of problems with that, but mainly is… Arthas’ turning was very obviously communicated to us from the beginning. From Kel’thuzzard and Mal’ganis cryptic warnings, to clear changes to his attitude and behavior, to the inscription on Frostmourn’s Dais, and finally his final words to Mal’ganis.

Arthas becoming a villain should have been a surprise to no one when it happened. With Sylvanas, it is less clear. Was that point the moment of her raising? Has she been evil this entire time? I would say yes, given her actions as Banshee Queen back in TFT and Classic… They are just as unforgivable as what she has done recently.

Yet, we saw a significant character attitude shift in Cata, after she had died. Was the the turning point?

Were neither of these turning points, but like Arthas, were supposed to hint us at her changing disposition, and her turning point was actually the pact she struck with Helya? Much like how Arthas made a pact with Frostmourn to “Save his homeland”?

The problem is the character progression is not nearly as well thought out as Arthas’ was, despite it taking nearly twenty years for them to tell this story. Not everyone at Blizzard agreed on what Sylvanas was, and their sad attempts at nuance were merely lazy ways of appeasing fans. She was villainized when appealing to the Alliance, and she was glorified when it comes to the Forsaken, but in a lazy “our people are dying out” sort of way that doesn’t track with Forsaken identity.

And that is really the crux of the issue. Blizz did what they always do, and tried to recapture lightning in a bottle instead of actually putting work into making Azeroth feel like a real and nuanced place. They tried to retell Arthas’ story with Sylvanas, but Sylvanas lacks everything needed for that story to work. Hell, even having a “Ranger General” self is stolen from the Arthas novel, when Arthas had Ner’zhul and his young self acting as the Angel and Devil on his shoulder. They are literally just trying to retell a story we have already seen. And it’s falling flat because it is lazy and doesn’t make any sense.

I just watched Witcher season 2, and I feel like there is a quote there that perfectly summarizes what Sylvanas’ story -should- have been about. And what being undead in Azeroth should actually mean.

“You can’t run from the world. You can’t hide from it. But you can find power and purpose. A chance to survive the horror.”

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This is a running story problem. There isn’t a provided explanation which creates a rational system expectation.
Since the story doesn’t seem to know what “The Purpose” is supposed to do, people are injecting their own RL opinions into how it should work, in their view. The result is wildly divergent opinions of the story.

Quite the process of judging that soul, isn’t it.
They wanted to do a story, the plot was all that mattered; characters became devices for the plot.

If they had known what they were going to do in Shadowlands, that line would have been cut before live. :slight_smile:

Arthas, who became the LK. No cut, no person floating out in the ether. No reason for the Jailer to make Uther “his pawn” and get Arthas’ soul, if he already had what he needed.

It’s even in his Warcraft III Death Knight quotes: “No one orders ME around!”

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“i will never serve”

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Except he was always too arrogant to realize he was just a pawn and could be ordered around by Ner’zhul whenever he wanted.

His “pre Frostmorne half” was not evil. At least not totally. He spent most of his youth defending his people and only when it became desperate that he started to use desperate tactics that slowly drove him insane.

We have only two dozen rangers up there," he said, his voice now a whisper. “They cannot survive that!” Sylvanas didn’t turn her gaze away from the dark mass of shambling corpses crushing its way closer to the river ford. It was the height of the Third War, and hours away from Silvermoon’s fall at the hands of Arthas’s army.

“They merely need to delay them as we fortify the Sunwell’s defense,” she answered, her tone measured.

“They will die!”

“They are arrows in the quiver,” Sylvanas said. “They must be spent if we are to win this.”

Sounds pretty evil or at least heartless of her to me. One has to wonder, if Ner’zhul had targeted her instead and said the only way to save Quel’thalas was to use Frostmorne, would she refuse? I would think not based on her own zeal at trying to save her kingdom.

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Now we know exactly what Arthas was seeing when he spoke those last words. It spins a whole different context.

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Or it sounds like someone who sees only one option for the survival of her very race.

Military decisions like D-Day, are generally made with the absolute realization that at least some of those soldiers, maybe a hell of a lot of them won’t be coming home.

That is after all what she and they signed up for.

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This same argument can be applied to the decisions Arthas has made as well.

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Except that we know a LOT more about Arthas actions which included hiring mercenaries, then lying about said mercenaries and then having them killed after they had done the job he had hired them to do. That throws the equivalence argument into the dustbin.

As the saying goes… Context is king.

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