Does Arthas deserve a "happy" ending?

Lore Story Forum
823

Saurfang’s whole plan in BFA in the duel was to make her so mad so she would act impulsively.
In WC3 she could have killed Arthas but took her time and he escaped. She bravely and stupidly faced an enemy she knew she could not defeat. She could have done a number of things before she let Arthas finally corner her.

Sylvanas is impulsive and vindictive as well. I don’t think she is as pramatic as you think she is. She is a person so it makes sense for her to also have weaknesses that can be manipulated.

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824

No, the lore is quite clearly and plainly on my side. Maybe if you experienced the lore yourself, and picked up a book, you would learn about the lore before you prove how little you know.

Fan made videos and your head canon are hardly a match for CDev and the actual lore.

CDev clearly states he was evil before he wielded it. And the lore is plain that he wielded it of his own choosing.

He chose to wield the sword, even when warned not to. The things he did afterward were because of that choice.

Your excuses for Arthas sound like what a bad lawyer would use for a drunk driver.

“Even though he got drunk and drove, despite his friends warning him not to, he isn’t responsible for crashing into the school bus and killing twenty kids, because he intended to get home and sleep!”

825

You don’t know her character at all and pretending you do is not doing anything to help your arguments.

There was nothing impulsive about the Makgora, he did not succeed in anything. She chose that moment to leave and lure the heroes into chasing her to the Shadowlands.

She’s absolutely not impulsive and vindictive, she’s cold and calculated.

She gave Saurfang exactly what he wanted: Death in glorious battle against a hated enemy.

The only victory Saurfang had in that Makgora was blindsiding her with Shalamane. Everything else she was in control, she expected everything to happen the way it did.

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826

I am referencing actual in game events. If Sylvanas was not impulsive then she wouldn’t have done what I described.

Actually, we didn’t chase her, we didn’t even know where she was, she sent some kidnapping squads and then we chased her. She could have kept the war going and gathered more souls for the jailer.

Thats your whole argument.
He chose to wield the sword.
Doesn’t matter what he wanted before, doesn’t matter what he was thinking or doing. None of it matters to you.

He picked up the sword. Thats it.
And now everything is his fault regardless of what happened to him or what he was willed to do and all that.

Sylvanas though we don’t need to put that burden on her nope. She is your favorite character and a critical analysis on her actions is not tolerated.

I am quoting actual lore to you. The only thing you have is a vague less than 10 second answer by CDev and if thats your entire argument then own it.

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827

Actually it is precisely because she is vindictive that Arthas managed to escape her grasp. She could have kill him back in Lordearon but no, she had to go “I will kill you as slowly as you killed me route” allowing Kelthusad to save Arthas.

828

When it comes to your comparison between Arthas and Sylvanas - Arthas making the choice is a stark difference that makes your comparison fall apart.

Yes. I can agree that is my view. Especially since his stated reasons fly in the face of what he was actually doing.

Blizzard made it clear that he wanted revenge and he wanted to mete out his brand of justice on Malganis. His wounded pride and hubris motivated him.

You are calling me wrong when I am right. That just shows you are not discussing in good faith. What ever we feel about Arthas or his intentions or motivations - the facts remain :

He was evil before he grabbed it. And he willingly grabbed it.

Those are just plain canon lore facts, that I am right about.

I see you call me wrong. But you have not disproved those facts. I have CDev and the lore, and even Calia mentions Arthas made his choices. So modern lore tracks with my position.

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829

In WC3 Sylvanas wasn’t even a fully conceptualized character beyond that game.

Who she’s become since then in her lore matters more.

The lore in her characterization even makes a point to retcon that character by saying she learned her lesson being too impulsive when it came to that moment. She regrets not killing him when she had the chance, she would never make that mistake again.

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830

Actually I dont recall any lore in WoW proper talking about that moment. And even if we were to ignore that the fact Delayrn words presumablu changed her mind tells me she is still quite impulsive with her plans. Not to mention she remained as vindicative to Garrosh as much as she ever was to Arthas.

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831

Yeah Delaryn’s words didn’t make her change her mind. If you read A Good War Sylvanas’s internal monologue as well as Nathanos’s suggestion to bring the blight, they were always planning to destroy the tree.

I’m not sure where this “she impulsively chose to burn the tree” narrative came from.

She spent two days prior to the siege mentally dehumanizing the Night Elves in preparation to attack them.

Even Saurfang had suspicions ehe didn’t have good intentions, nor was she intending to simply capture Teldrassil and hold it hostage.

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832

Except that was never the plan. She wanted hostages, and the fact is she of all people told Garrosh before what would happen if something did happen to the night elves and was trying to convince him not to attack Theramore(because she knew Undercity would fall)

833

In BFA she chose to destroy Teldrassil knowing full well it would cause the Alliance to attack Undercity, where she set a trap for the Alliance and almost wiping out the entire Alliance high command.

And she would have succeeded except Jaina Ex Machina showed up out of exile and turned the tide for the Alliance.

She couldn’t use this tactic when Garrosh was Warchief because the Horde would never defend Undercity if she was not Warchief. The Forsaken and Blood Elves would have been decimated and Garrosh would not have cared.

Did you even play the intro scenario to BFA?

I feel like your Alliance only bias may be hindering you at this point when it comes to the topic of Horde internal politics.

Sylvanas telling Garrosh not to attack the Night Elves because Undercity was vulnurable and taking that exact same plan and turning into a trap for the Alliance is peak Sylvanas. She already anticipated the Alliances reaction, she just had to wait for a time when the Forsaken were not vulnerable.

In Cata she told the Forsaken player she’d destroy Undercity before letting it fall back into the hands of the Alliance, and she kept her word.

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834

Just to reiterate my serious take from early in the thread.

835

And I don’t think anyone is disputing the first part, really.
As for the second one, it’s not so easy.

Arthas pre-Frostmourne is no monster or even a bad person, that is something the book makes very clear. He is, however, a flawed person and he knows it.

He isn’t a born fighter like Varian, his faith in the light isn’t strong like Uther’s- hence the light hesitating to bless him on the day when he becomes a paladin.

That seemingly unwavering self-confidence he displays is only a facade, in truth he is deeply insecure, crushed by the expectations placed on him and haunted by the fear that he might not be good enough. That he might fail everyone. His father, Jaina, his kingdom.

And those fears only intensify with Invincible’s death. That’s the crucial moment when he swears to himself that he will never fail anyone again, that he will do anything to protect his people, no matter the cost.

And that’s exactly what he does in Stratholme. He hates every second of it btw the book is also very clear on that. What he does is still terrible and he feels terrible about it, which is why from that point on he is so obsessed with his vendetta that he becomes immune to reason and good advice. If he cannot stop this, if he cannot kill Mal’Ganis, if he cannot save his kingdom, it was all for naught.

But let’s not pretend that killing innocent people-even if it’s a necessity and you felt that there was no other choice- won’t take a toll on you and leave you broken or jaded.

Unfortunately, the warcraft universe has no therapists that will help you with your PTSD. And Arthas in Northrend clearly isn’t the same person anymore.
His people notice that he doesn’t seem to feel the cold. The light is more and more reluctant to answer his call.

And then Frostmourne presents itself as the solution to all of his problems.

Now that he’s gone so far how could he let something so trivial as a curse stop him?
Was it the right choice? Of course not, we all know that.

But if he had succeeded? We see the exuberant welcome Lordearon gives him upon his return. He reached his goal but he paid a terrible price for it- his very soul ( He didn’t know it at the time he picked up the sword but I’d argue that he would have done it nonetheless. )

TLDR:
tbh I don’t know why liking Arthas or Sylvanas as a character must be mutually exclusive. But I think people like Arthas’ story because it was good and actually made sense, and sadly you can’t say the same for Sylvanas as of bfa.

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836

Actually I would say that more specifically his desire as Lich King was to rule over subjects who were absolutely loyal to him and completely incapable of disobedience. Even as a living MHP Arthas had issues with control- note how he reacts to Jaina and Uther abandoning him after he makes the decision to cull Stratholme.

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837

Technically his desire as lich king was to protect the entire planet using the Scourge since it was the best way to keep peace and stay focused on the bigger enemies.

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838

That was probably how the last remaining ‘not-evil-and-insane’ part of his mind tried to rationalize his actions, yea.

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839

I just want to note that Sylvanas should have really given up on that plan as soon as Alleria showed, let alone Jaina.

Because at that point half the people in her CUNNING TRAP were experts at portals.

And Sylvanas knew this, because she just saw Alleria move herself and Valeera around pretty casually.

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840

It definitely was his reason, not him trying to rationalize his actions.

841

And anyone who thinks Sylvanas doesn’t deserve the maw is a genocide apologist.

We can play this game if you want.

Unless your sylvanas…

Just saying

842

To be fair if anyone thinks either should get off scott free then either would be a genocide apologist.

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