Any class, any role. Feels like a no to me but I don’t actually play anything else. Curious.
wait, am I supposed to be working hard?
4 Likes
Disc Priest, I’d say.
I feel the same way.
Holy is just so different from all other healing specs now (and has been, for that matter). We are, to date (and still), the only healer that is essentially entirely reactive rather than proactive.
I can heal on my Evoker or Priest or whoever, in a M+, and be fine by the end. On my main Hpal though? My hands hurt and ache like nothing else, and it’s because I have no downtime (other than between mobs). I’ve been maining Hpal since the end of Wrath (was Rsham main before that), and it’s gotten worse and worse every xpac.
Idk if I’m finally starting to show my age, or what, but the amount I have to work (as in physically manipulate a keyboard/mouse and my brain) compared to other specs is getting to be untenable.
I love the class and spec identity, and I love having the tools that I have, but throughput has been a serious problem for a long time now, outside of wings.
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Can’t speak to M+ but in RBGs it feels like I’m trying to disarm a bomb, with my teeth, while speeding down a dirt road, and I’ll still only do half as much healing as a PrEvoker.
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I feel like Holy Paladin feels great in skilled or overgeared groups, and it feels horrible in average groups. I remember when I played it, I found it most fun when the incoming damage was manageable, and I was only spot healing. But as soon that the group started losing itself in mechanics, I was suddenly not able to catch up and it was very stressful and unfun. Part of that is that you can’t turn yourself off the fight and spam healing. You have to constantly generate HPs in melee to heal, and if melee mechanics are punishing, it feels like you’re playing two roles at the same time.
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This really isn’t true. Hpal has a lot of proactive abilities that you can use to make your life a hell of a lot easier.
Blessing of Sacrifice is the best healer external in the game, by far. A 45% DR on a minute cooldown is absolutely ridiculous. You can use it to protect your tank from things like Void Slashes, Crawth’s Savage Peck, Kokia Blazehoof’s Searing Blows, and save yourself a ton of single target healing. You can use it on squishy DPS like hunters and shamans during mechanics like Mana Bomb for the same reason.
Blessing of Protection can straight up invalidate some boss mechanics, like Fenryr’s Scent of Blood, and it can protect your ranged DPS from the scary charging trash in the first part of Nokhud.
In addition, having Holy Power incentivizes us to prepare for upcoming damage by letting us bank five HP for a quick LoD > Shock > LoD/WoG combo that does a LOT of burst healing, especially with Beacon of Virtue.
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I would agree with the OP that holy is a harder spec, but IMO much of that stems from being in melee. Monks have similar issues, but have significantly better mobility. 10.0.7 helped us indirectly with some of the new class tree talents (sanctified plates & crusader’s reprieve) and the simplification of D&D.
u don’t have to make ur life harder op. go caster and be relax 
BEEAS+uMNo6HaxL/ztTZBhrdcCAHAAABAEBAAAQJCIlIJKFkSSiUSIKJimgkUSSkkQkGgIAgAAFgQA
flash of light > holy light > wrath - panda land way of healing. no more crusader strike or if u like it still, it is an optional skill, with that build. just replace veneration with something else. this requires 20% haste or 1.2 casting speed for flash of light, and at least 30% crit chance for infusion. “breaking dawn, protector of tyr, unwavering spirit” will be your optional talent for raiding, and i recommend “power of the silver hand” for m+ ; since this build uses flash of light a lot, it can turn your holy shock into a quasi lay on hands twice everyminute, but it is rng. mastery will be dead stat and vers will be the rest of your stat.
1 Like
export that one more time pls?
Quote is overly optimistic of holy paladin. We are indeed trash.
Sac isn’t 45% DR, you can’t just add 30% + 15% (echoing blessing) together like that. It’s closer to 40% even with generous math (ignoring target versatility and DR) and don’t forget a sizable portion of the dmg is returned to you. If you’ve ever used it on a Blood DK on a high key in a big pull you’ll know this isn’t exactly trivial amounts of damage diversion.
You’re also over representing BOP, it doesn’t invalidate that many boss mechanics. I can only think of NOK last boss and Fenryr which any decent warrior should already be Intervening.
As for the opening NOK trash, BOP only really covers mistakes for a 5 min CD, if players aren’t taking turns taking the charge/bleed the player will still get wrecked and a grabage 10 second BOP isn’t going to change that.
I can somewhat get behind the overall message that we can take a proactive stance on healing, but this isn’t unique to holy paladin, applies to all healers and is more a function of how scripted and how powerful the weak aura tools are these days. If you’re trying to cover random player errors (and they do happen, even at high IO levels) and you find yourself low on holy power (because you decided to fish for wings or use a dog sh1t SOTR cast to do 1 dmg) that’s when you’ll really see how poor a reactive paladin is.
Speaking of damage our damage is complete dogsh1t and the team signing off on this as “balance” compared to evoker, druid and shaman need to lose their positions and be transferred to the customer support department.
People need to stop defending how bad holy paladin is. It’s a garbage spec and no Aura Mastery/Devo aura doesn’t make up for it.
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You’re choosing the tank with the worst active mitigation/damage reduction to make your point here? Doesn’t that seem like a bit of cherry picking? I mean yeah, obviously you’re going to take a ton of transferred damage in that particular situation. That doesn’t mean Sac isn’t an incredible button.
How am I overrepresenting anything? I said it straight up invalidates some boss mechanics, which it does, and I gave one example. You gave another. I don’t see how I made a hyperbolic statement.
Garbage in what way? What content can holy paladin realistically not do that other healers can? There are plenty of 25+ keys that have been done by holy paladins, and that’s far higher than 99% of the playerbase will ever sniff. Are there some improvements that can be made to the spec? Sure, but nonchalantly waving a hand and just dismissing the entire spec as trash isn’t productive. The spec is perfectly fine for almost all content.
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I believe he means the spec isn’t fun, or enjoyable. Which is subjective, but a relatively popular vote.
I’ve been playing Paladin since 05. I’ve always loved holy. Healing has always been my thing. Melee healing is clunky and extremely anti-fun.
Most people do not like mouse over macros, and you’re severely gimping yourself not using them with melee Holy. It shouldn’t be the clear cut better way to heal either, which it is. Especially while casting talents still exist in the same tree. Why is the spec split into 2? Why not have a 4th spec like Druids?
The tree is half***, and anyone that plays the game for any period of time can tell the tree is garbanzo beans. Not in effectiveness; in enjoyment.
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Every healer uses mouseover macros. What exactly makes holy paladin need them more? I’m confused on what exactly you’re referring to.
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You’re correct that Blood DK has hte worst activie mitigation. I did choose it for that reason to illustrate a point. I would like to note however that at the same time it’s one of the most applicable use cases for Blessing of Sac which is why I also used it as an example.
When I say holy spec is trash its because of the many (seemingly) deliberate handicaps applied to the spec that are purely fundamental rather than numerical tuning. Some examples below.
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Light of Dawn and Avenging Crusader NOT a smart heal, why is this? Without tuning numbers these abilities would be stronger if they were a smart heal.
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Convoluted Holy Spec tree. Why are we forced to take multiple talents that we don’t actually want. Is clicking and selecting “Holy Light” as a talent supposed to be funny? It’s nearly just a talent point tax.
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Ridiculous class tree post 10.0.7. The RET and Prot specs actively have better healing talents than we do. Healing Hands is something Holy would absolutely love, its jammed into our “class tree” yet Holy is denied it. We get Afterimage instead which up until 2 days was bugged to literally (yes mathmatically) result in lower throughput. RET and Prot also get Unbound Freedom talent where it was explicitly removed from Holy, again from the class tree. Implying somehow that Holy doens’t have mobility issues or that it would be overpowered if Holy had access to this. Like who thought that was a good idea.
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Damage output. We don’t have an option to drop healing to near zero and instead just pump decent damage. Our single target prio damage is un unacceptably low. Likely the worst out of all healers as the others have better damage options. I recall historically there was either a glyph or talent which allowed Word of Glory to be used as a single target damage spell. Baffles me why this wasn’t brought back as an option as it’s existing code which would again provide options for holy paladin to dump holy power into damage either via SOTR (multi target) or WOG (single target).
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Melee reliance. The fact is that melee range increases danger. You would think that being in melee range provides some sort of tangible benefit over other healers. Nope, neither our HPS nor DPS excels over others while we’re in melee range. Rather you have to be in melee range just to be struggling to stay afloat relative to other healers. If you’re not in melee range you’ll just be trash versus every other healer (except Mistweaver but their damage is way higher than ours so their melee range is justified).
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Caster talents. Seriously, if Blizz wants caster build to be viable then tune the numbers to make it viable. It’s not viable right now beyond playing it as a joke. If Blizz doesn’t want to make it viable then delete the talents and redsign to something else.
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gcd locked. Too many weak abilities have to be chained together to offer a mediocre outcome. We all Crusader Strike often. It feels horrible to press but is a necessary evil to generate HP to heal. BOV, an effectively mandatory talent for M+, continues to invoke a full GCD every (approx) 15 seconds for an 8 second duration. Come on Blizz, drop that gcd down to half a gcd or remove it altogether. Blizz already mentioned maintenance buffs aren’t fun and are trying to step away from them.
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Further design choices that just make you say “wtf?”. Our main heal, Holy Shock, when criting provides Illumination of Light proc which is largely ignored. It’s been ignored since Shadowlands when it was originally changed (into dogsh1t) and instead of revamping it they left it for this expansion. Tough of Light choice talent node, instead of being deleted that node still exists. There isn’t one high rated Paladin which takes this node. Just delete, redesign or retune it.
2 Likes
Trying to crusader strike an enemy, holy shock a friendly, crusader strike the same target with the 2nd charge, then word of glory a different friendly target, while moving in and out of melee obstacles and danger is much more difficult without mouse over macros. Meanwhile, on my Shaman and Druid I can successfully heal without the use of said macros.
All I’m saying is; the spec basically demands the use of it. Can you play melee Holy without it? Sure. But it’s exponentially more difficult than other classes.
I’m aware a large majority of people use mouse overs. The point I’m trying to get across is that it’s a very large portion of being successful with Paladin vs other healers due to the design choice.
Since I came back this discussion has been ongoing and I have several viewpoints after playing holy and healing enough 18s and 19s. I even managed to heal a 20 court of stars. This is what I learnt in my time:
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Holy paladins are ridiculously proc based. If anyone disagrees then look at how many procs we get. Sometimes I feel lucky and other times I feel like I am just praying for a lucky proc. Why is our bottom talent to proc a light of dawn on a 20 second cooldown?
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Why are our damage spenders so expensive? I holy shock then crusader strike x2 and it eats a good chunk of my mana especially if I am repeating it.
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Being a melee healer I have way too many things to manage, I got to dodge mechanics, generate holy power, keep everyone alive and manage my cooldowns, remember when things are going to damage the party to start to plan my heals, interrupt, take care of explosives and the list just goes on and on. This has been one of the challenging specs to learn again and while I am semi decent at it, I feel like I have too much to do. Especially if you have a horrendous party who insit on being hit by every god damn mechanic. I mean ruby life pools I hate healing that top ring.
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Light of dawn is a bastard of a heal if I miss most of the party, most of the times unless people in melee I got to orient myself before firing it. I learnt the BoV + light of dawn is really good and with it boosting WoG heals by an additional 45% it’s definitely something I use a lot more.
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Mana can be super inconsistent especially on heavy healing fights. I wish we could be a bit more of a proactive healer instead of just reactive. I have had cases where I had to fire my spells early cause tank took extra damage or party did so when the aoe damage comes I am rushing to build up holy power to perform my spells. Something is horribly broken if one of my talent heals holy light is something I do not actively use.
With all this said to everyone who comes and says no holy is fine then I don’t believe you truly play the spec especially in high mythic keys. I have reworked my spec so many times at this point to make it easier but healing holy is either a headache inducing affair or really good depending on the amount of aoe damage going out and the party members.
I have been playing more ret and I am having fun with it, it feels like they got it right it was annoying to play previously. I am not asking for a complete rework but some things need fixing and if they are serious about giving us a caster build then genuinely do it. Don’t make talents like Tyrs hammer which is effectively no better than taking the consecrate heal from the main paladin tree. Make it fun to play a holy paladin and for the life of me nerf some of the costs for abilities.
1 Like
There is a lot of good info in this thread highlighting issues that are preventing holy from being level with other healers and being more fun. I for one do not want samey healers, I’m happy to be in melee. I just want some reason to be there that benefits the group. I think blizzard has done a great job on mistweaver in DF - I wish holy would get similar treatment. I honestly don’t think it would take much.
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boost dps on crusader strike - and reduce mana cost. Also, we need more than 2 charges. Every other healer had a spammable dps button they can weave in when time allows. (Melee healers should be the highest dps imo - risk vs reward)
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replace sotr with a spender that hits much harder. Bonus points for bringing back 2h weapons like legion. Double bonus for an affect that mesh’s with a baseline ability like consecrate.
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fix infusion of light to make flash of light instant and holy light do something more than it does now. I RARELY spend my procs as it’s a death sentence to stand still for that long in the current m+ world. As an alternative, flash of light could be changed to be casted while moving. This would be a zero net increase in HPS on paper, but meaningful in reality.
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judgement should build HP. No brainer
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beacons removed from GCD. No brainer
These changes all by themselves might be enough to bridge the gap. I don’t want to see any other healers nerfed- bring us up.
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There are a lot of great ideas in this thread. I don’t think holy is all that far from being competitive and more fun.
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crusader strike needs more damage, less mana cost, and more charges. as I’m a fan of base level interactions - the damage could be left as is with the affect that while we stand in our one consecration, crusader strike hits 2+ targets. this would add some M+ dps to our rotation without bringing much more dps to the table in fights without stacking mobs like many raids, bosses, and probably PvP. final throught - I believe we are the only healer without a spammable attack - this sucks for M+ weeks with the explosive affix.
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sotr needs some love. More damage, and bonus if it interacts with a baseline ability like consecrate. my logs consistently indicate that SotR hits for less per use than crusader strike. for a max dps button this feels pretty bad compared to other healers apex dps button.
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judgment generates holy power
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infusion has more utility. Instant flash of light, or allows FoL to be used while moving.
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beacons off the gcd.
5.1) BoV hits the target and 4 others -
Devo aura needs a boost for m+. I love it in raids, but the power of that ability scales down as the group shrinks.
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while I love the flavor of the blessings spells, having 4 on rotation is sorta underwhelming for a bottom on the skill tree ability.
I want to stay in melee. Blizzard has proven they can make that work with the changes to mistweaver. We need some similar attention.
None of these ideas are original really, and I don’t think any of them would require a lot of rework. A few simple and small changes are all that is needed to make holy a little more fun without adding too much power.