Do you think there is an ability bloat?

Just want to grasp what people think.
Do you think by removing some extra buttons and gimmicks, such as aligning our CD’s, would make the game better by allowing more people to be on the similar level?

Obviously, good top notch players play much better. I was in some low key on an alt and our ret didn’t even use divine hammers a single time lol

Just a topic of discussion.

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Not as a BM Hunter.

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Depends on the definition.

I think a spec like Outlaw has ability bloat in the sense that it has to apply as many buffs/procs for little gain, or for benefits that would be better suited as baseline.

The bloat of Roll the Bones, which is too powerful for its buffs to be baseline, yet so weak that every Tier Set props it up in some way.

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I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the most popular specs in the game also happen to be some of the simplest. I think more people find a spec appealing when there are fewer spinning plates to maintain.

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Nah, it’s fine.

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The specs I play most are shaman, mage, and hunter. I think these specs are fine in terms of button pushing.

In particular I like where restoration shaman is. On the surface there are loads of buttons but you actually pick and choose the subset you want to use.

Currently I’m running low keys so I talent into more stuns and roots. When I hit the higher keys I talent out of those and into more/different healing talents.

It’s a great mix of options. When I’m doing my core healing it’s not that many buttons.

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I don’t think so…

and while we’re on this topic, I would like adaptive swarm and flourish back on my druid. Like now’ish please :heavy_heart_exclamation:

(You can’t have flourish and photo like we used to, for those wondering).

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We can already align our Cool Downs. I generally put the repeatable buttons on the bottom line and the Cool Down buttons on the line above it and I’m, without a doubt, the worst player in the game.

If I can do it, anyone can do it.

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One huge thing in modern rotation is RNG procs and procs on speeding up APM.

As outlaw main in Shadowlands for keys, without a good Roll The Bones rng, we did practically no damage. Without offhand procs, we’d generate far less CB’s and have far slower energy regen.

As ret (3kio), unless I get the stars to align, the base damage is practically non existent.

It’s all about cooldowns and procs. Baseline Divine Storm does practically no damage, but in combination with 5 other spells and tier proc, only THEN you start to get some decent output, where is back in the day, it was a bit different. Cata/Wrath/TBC/MoP - abilities themselves did damage.

Do you know what I mean?

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I really loved this one. I totally get you.

certain specs can feel like it, but mostly nah

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Removing tools or abilities a spec has to handle certain situations doesn’t make those situations not happen, it just makes those situations more annoying / less fun to deal with.

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For some classes yes, though less around the amount of abilities, more the amount needed frequently in a rotation to do decent damage.

Some classes are just stupidly overdesigned.

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Yes, I despise having to track a pile of modifiers to optimize damage. It’s why I don’t bother with specs like havoc.

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Buttons are fine for the most part. There can be some minor pruning for QoL, but I’d say overall, most specs are in a good place outside of full reworks.

The big issue I see is people complain about talents and abilities but can’t even be bothered to read the tooltips.
Like at least read what things do before complaining because you just mindlessly mash lol.

Idk how many bm hunters I’ve seen can’t even press multi shot. Its insane.

Or just flat taking barrage as well… oof my hunter heart can’t take much more of this.

It’s a dead horse. Not so good players complain about it. Good players don’t complain about it.

It’s fine where it is imo.

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Outlaw isn’t even bloated in the slightest bit. It’s pretty straightforward.

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Some classes/specs, yes. Some classes/specs, no. I think there’s alot of redundancy in abilities that doesn’t need to be there, but that’s just me.

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As a mage, rotationally no, but arcane strikes me as a bit weird in that there are three cooldowns (Arcane Surge, Evocation, Touch of the Magi) whose main purpose is to be combined together at all times, with only TotM coming up early enough to be used when the others aren’t. And then there’s Shifting Power, which is just a cooldown for your cooldowns.

You aren’t even using Evocation for the mana regeneration! It’s just to get that talented int buff going. You’d be using it and Arcane Surge even if Evocation OOMed you, because Surge’s secondary is already refilling your mana and its accompanying damage buff is where you’re really getting your juice.

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Could have been talented into the other version.

But to the topic: no. Having access to a lot of abilities, but not actively/routinely using said abilities doesnt lead bloat.

Most specs can be simplified down to:

1-2 ST fillers
1-2 AoE fillers
ST finisher
AoE finisher
1-2 CDs
1-2 stops/interrupts

Rest of the abilities are purely situational. If its something thats part of your basic rotation and only being pressed a few times per encounter, it doesnt contribute to bloat.

Now if Survival Instincts, Charm Woodland Creature, Revive, Soothe, Remove Corruption were all being weaved into my normal rotation, then perhaps. But theyre not. So it doesnt feel overwhelming to go out of my way to use one of those abilities here and there