Do people not like BM for mythic+?

That chart looks surprisingly close to the (All Kills and Wipes) data from WCL. Perhaps the (All Kills) only log would be more appropriate, since Hunters can Feign Death and survive Wipes.

warcraftlogs com/zone/statistics/35#metric=deaths&dataset=0&kills=2

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i wonder what druids are doing then to have even more deaths than hunters using FD? :wink:

the all kills log I think something odd is happening, because over the same time frame (2 weeks) it has MM super inflated dying, far higher than BM and SV

Its not just damage taken, its damage taken and then SUBTRACT the classes self healing. Its incredibly evident that some of the classes were given massive amounts of leech/shielding etc, so damage taken is only half the information. Nice trying to distort that simple idea after I expressly pointed it out not 5 posts above.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/help/deaths except that as you can read here the fact that hunter can feign isn’t relevant due to how they gather the data.

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purely damage taken and subtracting self-healing is also a “distortion” since half of hunter’s defensive is just having a giant hp pool bud

It’s not just the last two weeks. Max from Limit was doing a stream right before Hunter’s Mark was changed and was discussing this data. If I remember correctly, he was saying Hunters are too squishy and bring virtually nothing to a raid, so they need to be one of the top DPS to compensate. Either that or make Hunter’s Mark better and/or improve their survivability.

Is Hunter the squishiest class? I don’t know. I know it’s the squishiest class I play though. With a good group, and good healers, I have zero issues staying alive. It’s when we try to do things like run short a healer that I quickly run out of ways to keep myself alive. Others are doing just fine while I wait for a cooldown to finish.

that was the time frame of the chart I posted that you questioned the validity of and suggested a different data set.

do you have a link from this? AFAIK before the utility change the hunter point was entirely utility related, which, you know, makes sense lol

no…and that’s what the discussion is about right now lol

So what is the squishiest class? Would you agree that Hunter is one of the squishier classes? Or is your stance that Hunters are sturdier than others?

Heliôs pointed out how the death % data is compiled.

  • The metric displayed in the bars and graphs is a Death %. This represents the total number of deaths of that spec divided by the total number of players of that spec seen across all the fights. For example, if a pull contains three Subtlety Rogues, and one of them dies, but the other two do not, the Death % is 33%.
  • Multiple deaths will penalize the spec further, meaning that it is entirely possible for a Death % to exceed 100%. If a fight has two rogues and they die four times total, then the Death % is 200%.

Seems reasonable that the classes most likely to get rezzed mid-fight, and possibly die again, would skew the results.

not sure, but certainly not hunter with turtle, exhil, bear, and sotf; on top of endurance, hunters avoidance, and rejuv winds

You don’t know what the squishiest class is, but you know it’s not Hunter. It seems like the only way to know it’s not Hunter is to know for sure of at least one other class that is squishier. So, I will change my question. What class is for sure squishier than Hunter?

Full disclosure: I don’t know what the squishiest class is. I only know that of the classes I play, my Hunter is the squishiest, and it’s not even close. For reference, I play DK, DH, Priest, Warlock, Rogue, and Hunter. I dabble at Mage, but haven’t played it since SL.

Note: By squishy, I don’t mean I feel like I’m taking more damage than others. I mean how often I feel I am unable to save myself when needed. Hunters have some decent defensives, but they’re on fairly long cooldowns comparatively. When they are on CD, I feel like a sitting duck, praying the healer is paying attention to my CDs.

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what pet do you use?

Taking damage taken and subtracting out self healing done is a ‘distortion’ because hunters have large hp pools? uhh what? Its actually the only empirical way to examine a classes survivability without trying to pull in things like healers. Since hunter takes more damage, and heals less, that makes them squishy, we aren’t defending our own ‘super big’ hp pool. Do you have any idea what Effective health pool means? Classes with fewer hp totals than hunters have way higher effective health pools because of their baked in defensives.

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If looking at “squishiness”, yes, it’s not an especially complete picture. If looking at healer resources required, it’s better but still not quite complete, as between-defensives incoming attacks that may kill others and therefore require immediate action may be able to be postponed on the Hunter or emergency CDs spared by nature of the Hunter’s passively higher HP.

As you’ve suggested, eHP (alongside coverage, though such is context-dependent) is the way to measure how likely one is to pop, but if we’re considering passives or, as you put it…

…then things like our being able to talent for 6% Avoidance… is one such baked in defensive, for a 6.4% eHP increase against raidwide direct damage, no?

Or are you solely counting %HP-triggered Cheat Death equivalents? But if so, why aren’t we counting them, too, as CDs? They have significant cooldowns, after all, while our passive eHP increases do not.


Now, to be clear, I wouldn’t be opposed to Hunter’s getting a bit more self-sustain. I’d rather it not come at any cost to our unique gimmicks and would sooner start from removing what things arbitrarily cannot be Feigned, reducing the base CD of Cheetah and Turtle, etc., but I wouldn’t mind if MM and BM self-sustain were raised to what SV manages already via its far better use of Leech or whatnot.

Do you have a source of all the classes ehp

Heres a non-exhaustive list that I already posted in response to you that you never replied with but feel free to look and compare.

I don’t see a baseline ehp number for each class there

I’m not going to try to math it out for you Sir, if you want to go ahead, just compare how many more baked in defense things those classes get from their talents.

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So then your original comment is just based on feels :man_shrugging:

I now think you are just a troll and a boring one at that.

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kinda wild to call someone a troll for disagreeing with you