Why nerf the entire spec, putting Tyrant back to 1.5min CD just sounds ridiculous!
because that combo is the most spec warping combo in the entire game and promotes unhealthy degen gameplay. If anything decon needs to be removed entirely.
4 Likes
Not more than DeCon+Nether Portal will be, will not be surprised if either decon or np get nerfed/changed
Now back on topic, i don’t think its a nerf in the sense of player-power, the spec will just be balanced around the new normal.
an the new normal is one where you choose to pick either Demonic Consumption to make your Cooldown more powerfull or Wilfred to make your cooldown happen more often.
Higher burst [More bursty spec] vs Lower Bursts but more often [Sustain-ish spec]
And when we consider the idea of meaningfull choices, and interesting choices, that is one of them, the ability to customise a cooldown to be stronger or faster is very interesting.
Now, there is are underlying topics in this thread… who is the idea of Tyrant Cooldown.
Do people just straight up prefer 60s CD tyrant? would them prefer if they reduced tyrant CD baseline by 33%(so from 90s to 60s) even if that would cost of power (duration of tyrant reduced from 15s to 10s as well as its 15s extension/energy freeze]?
Do people prefer Wilfred CDR [-0,6s per soulshard spent] as is or as Flat CDR[-30s] even when they result in the same final cooldown?
Would they prefer a more easily avaliable wilfred even if it was weaker? because the DF wilfred in the tooltips seems to be stronger than the one in Shadowlands, with 2s CDR[DF] per soulshard vs a 0,6s CDr[Shadowlands] per Soulshard.
I think Wilfred is inherently a problematic talent if a spec has more than 1 CD, this is because it becomes a binary: Can I get X ability down to the CD off y ability? If yes, its awesome, if not it sucks. If I can push X lower its irrelevant, I only need to reach Y, which makes Wilfred inherently unstatisfying imo.
In that sense, I think pure reduce CDR would be healthier as a talent for multi CD specs, which is both Demo and Aff. I could see destro favoring a wilfred play style, but that would require not using on-use trinkets, which have been the devs prefered trinket to push last 3 expacs.
Genuinely speaking, I have always thought that DeCon was problematic design. Because if DeCon ends up being as strong as it is (and historically has been), then I have to take all the HP+ in the class tree to translate into throughput instead of just being defensive talents. DeCon has always been a degenerative playstyle IMO and should be reworked completely or removed.
2 Likes
Trust me, you don’t really need Wilfred’s.
I don’t really understand the movement of removing DeCon.
The design of DeCon as “talent that buffs tyrant damage” is not a problem.
the only concern to note, its how it interacts with Stamina and not Intellect, and how those two scale in different ways[Stamina grows faster than Intellect].
https://www.simulationcraft.org/ have a few different gear profiles between ilvl 184 and ilvl 285 (for warlocks we don’t have 304-311 yet in the website and i was lazy to dig it around)
using those profiles between the Ilvl 184 and the Ilvl 285 one i can show a difference between NP,SS and DeCon on ilvl 184 and the difference between NP,SS and DeCon on ilvl 285.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/azR3QUeFe47UopJXAEwgar
all 3 are within 1% difference, the legendary i used Horned don’t favor any of the talents in particular [well, a little bit of Sacrificed Souls].
But let put a legendary like Wilfreds who favors DeCon/ little bit of Sacrificed Souls and provide no value for Nportal.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tgDykFmBqd2tMkXG3XqnVb
Oh look, NP have gone behind the other two, but SS/Decon are close together…
But lets see what it happens when i push T28 profile, who have 285 ilvl who have a whole lot more stamina/intellect.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rMemry4kCEw2TwqWWkU6ou
Now DeCon is ahead by 10%-12%.
This happens because like i said Stamina relationship on gear starts to grow faster with ilvl compared to Intellect.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1003768610549944501/1008150453634203709/unknown.png
At Ilvl 163 to 185 the stamina to intellect relationship is something like 1,5 stamina for each point of intellect on a Shadowlands Glove.
at Ilvl 200 it becomes 1,7 stamina for each point of intellect on the same glove.
At ilvl 220 its now 1,8 stamina on the same glove.
At ilvl 260 it now 2 stamina for each point of intellect on the same glove.
at 311 Its now 2,2 stamina for each point of intellect on the same glove.
This makes an Talent like DeCon, who damage is based on the HP of your pets[and as such your HP, and your stamina] grows stronger with ilvl than the other 2.
this part can be problematic, but it can be solved and preserving the idea of DeCon[a talent who buffs tyrant damage] and its gameplay.
You could change DeCon to add an bonus spell power % value to its cast based on each demon.
Each Imp Value adds a +5% spell power; Grimoire Felguard, Vilefiend, Felguard give +25% spell power, and each Dreadstalker a value of 15% and you would have a value very similar proportions, but now it scales with Intellect just like NP/SS.
You Could just make it a flat increase to spell power of tyrant, removing the gameplay element of DeCon, and flatlining the skill floor and skill celining of the talent.
There are tons of possible solutions some involve replacing DeCon, others just adjustments.
…Now, i would not be surprised if someone come to the “wrong conclusion” and start wanting stamina scalling on everything demonology because its “OP”.
3 Likes
Why are we trying to double down on Demo’s current terrible design and horrendous ramp up?
Tyrant and NP need retooling. The spec should be moved away from imp swarms and have less hard casts on cd’s and set up. Better burst and target switching.
Nobody can seriously say they enjoy having to pair 2-3 HoG’s with dradstalkers into trinket, into soul rot mini-heroism, into Tyrant to start doing any meaningful damage.
Seriously, Demonfire is my top damage source by a mile in every aspect, from boss fights to trash. Why?
Why can’t demonbolt, hand of guldan, and felstorm and felguard hit harder? The dreadstalkers both outdamage the felguard not only with dreadbite but on melee. WTF.
Implosion is terrible. You literally gut your long term single target to do AoE, you have to ramp up AoE by having enough imps since implosion does no damage whatsoever at lower imp counts, and to make it worse, once you switch to a priority target after AoE you have to ramp up your single target all over by rebuilding the imps.
Legion demo needs serious rework.
Limit imps to 3-4, use them as a resource for aoe/demonbolt enhancement, shove more damage into Hand of Gul’dan and Demonbolt and our felguard/greater demons.
Once Soulrot haste amp and the tier set bonus goes away, demo will go back to the garbage bin it has historically been in since Legion.
It has a horrendous damage profile and delivery kit.
1 Like
Because i enjoy the current design, i think Demonology from BfA to SL is an amazing spec with very interesting rotation in single target and aoe.
I don’t want to reinvent the wheel, i don’t want to role-play a demon hunter, i want what exists enhanced and improved [not in the meaning of strenght, but quality].
I love the existence of my army of wild imps and the single target rotation; i find it fascinating that Implosion is such a well crafted spell that with it alone, you transform the single target rotation in AOE and introduce the concept of Implosion Cycles.
I think Demon bolt and Demonic Cores fits a lot with the variable shard spenditure demonology have, meaning you generate +1 or +2 shards, and spend -1,-2 or -3 shards with Dogs, HOG, GFG or VF.
Tyrant is a very fascinating cooldown, much more interesting than some random X% secondary stat here or there [yes this is a jab to Dark Soul] and matches well the idea of Demonology.
2 Likes
Nobody asked to roleplay demonhunter. The post is not your “give back meta” strawman. Demonology before sepulcher set bonus was a dumpster fire, underperforming spec, and it needs QoL increases.
Since shadowlands and some latter part of BfA, demo never saw meaningful M+ presence. Since its Legion rework, it has been the most underrepresented and undertuned warlock spec.
We don’t want metamorphosis. We want other demons besides imps and dogs with signficant ramp up to do our damage.
You literally cast 2-3 spells in your rotation, and your only thought goes to “how many imps+ dogs can I stack without delaying tyrant”. Calling it interesting doesn’t make it so.
Implosion is such a well crafted spell that it does no damage whatsoever and the spec has had atrocious aoe without some borrowed system features propping it up in some small intervals between the patches.
Take off the tier set bonus, untalent the shadowbite talents, go do a M+, and get back to me about how marvelous demo’s design is.
I would not speak for all Warlocks when you say “we” because Meta has been a fond memory and a want for many, maybe not for you but for others yes. I do agree that doing the same ramp before tyrant can be a little tedious when doing it thousands of times. Which is why I personally wish DeCon gets out of the game, at least its current iteration.
The new talent tree should give options to how one wants to play, between Zoo (NP), Commando Squad (Felguard/Dogs/Tyrant), and Self Empowerment (Sac Souls or Meta if ever reimagined).
DeCon limits to Always Tyrant no matter what because Stamina scaling is cringe and unhealthy design.
What. No, really, what?
Implosion has one of the highest AoE burst potentials in the game if you use it right (notably right after a Tyrant). Yeah, it’s not as sustainable as other classes and not as easy to pull off but to say it does no damage is just… what
The specs AoE is fine. Along with Implosion, the entire first tier of talents are fine AoE, with Dreadbite being the current go to due to tier and conduits, but in the past both Demonic Strength and Felscourge have been very strong aoe, with Demonic Strength typically being the stronger option due to being more mobile and not costing an awkward amount of shards.
I don’t understand what your point about doing a m+ without talents is supposed to make. Talents aren’t borrowed power. Why would I purposefully do an m+ without talents? Or the borrowed power, for that matter, because that’s an issue damn near every spec of every class has.
No one will deny Demo is being propped by borrowed power. Practically the entire class list is. That’s why borrowed power is an issue, and that’s why so much of borrowed power is being added to the upcoming talent trees. Because most classes as a whole were gutted with Legion and are empty shells without borrowed power. Adding a lot of this stuff to be actually built into the class itself is solid future proofing because no longer will we have those terrible periods where we have no borrowed power and everything feels yucky.
Now, the one point I WILL agree with you is that Demo is too much of a one trick pony right now. Heck, most specs are, but many usually have at least some options. DeCon is at the heart of this problem, and while I appreciate that the DeCon build exists, it tends to outscale the other options tremendously as the expansion goes on. The hope is that the talent trees has enough potential to make other builds equally good to DeCon so that there can be some actual variety to playstyles.
As an example, the Nether Portal talents, alongside the new Doom talent and the baseline increase in Shadowbolt damage could actually make a Sacrificed Souls build viable, where you take the improved Doom, all the Demonbolt enhancing talents, Nether Portal and Sacrificed Souls, do all your demon summoning, pop Tyrant (base Tyrant is likely going to be mandatory for every build with or without DrCon/Wilfreds lets be real) and have a period where your Shadowbolts, Demonbolts and Doom all hit really really hard
Will that actually end up a viable build? I don’t know, maybe? Depends on balancing. It’ll be better than it is right now at least because right now that kind of build only really boosts Demombolt, which itself is currently a very busy and aqkward build falling shy of the much more manageable DeCon build. Yeah Shadowbolt gets boosted too but a 50% boost to crappy damage is still crappy damage. With a more manageable Demonbolt build, a stronger baseline Shadowbolt and Doom being affected too? I dunno, man, it might actually have a real shot.
1 Like
So your answer understanding that demo = bad is asking me to remove a talent and the tier set and compare myself with people with tier set and talents? are you delusional?
even more so when [2] is in the DF talent Tree, and while [4] is not a direct copy, Imp Gang Boss fills similar function.
Implosion is a great spell, where you can minmax your rotation around cycles of implosions with 6, 9 or 12 imps depending on how much resource you have.
2 Likes
I remember I imploded 30 imps in a pack.
Gotta say though, DSS inflates this to the point where my friends are like WTF.
I could have summoned more imps if I have a pocket NF priest that properly track my cooldowns. 
1 Like
I have fond memories of Metamorphosis from MOP [not so much WOD, hated demonbolt then and Wrath Cata Meta was just a +X% damage modifier based on mastery who gave you immolation aura and a few other spells ]
But i have given up on it, extremely unlikely for it to come back like the version i remember in MOP, if it came back more likely would be something like the version on cataclysm.
Now, this is interesting, Sacrificed Souls is a cool way about self empowering that i think blizzard should explore more and you are one of the few who i have seen mention or talk about that.
No, I’m asking you to compare yourself to people back in Nathria, SoD, or hell most of BfA and Legion, where you were in the garbage bin as a spec.
Let’s take your demo warlock without the tier, compare it to my DK/rogue/fire mage/warrior, and then get back to me who does well in M+ and who does not historically.
Spoiler alert, it’s not the demo warlock. Prior to this tier set, demo warlock couldn’t historically even break top 3 single target boss DPS in the majority of the raid tiers, so it didn’t even shine in its purported niche.
Delusional is thinking that a spec that has been competitive for only an inkling of the time it has existed is somehow fine and a better alternative to other iterations. Demonology has been the feral druid of casters.
I don’t think they were that bad.
Well… Legion was pretty bad (DEMONIC EMPOWERMENT), BfA was meh (Didn’t play BFA unfortunately but I remember DeCon used to consume imps) and SL Demo was okay if not good.
It’s hard to remember when affliction and destro tend to do so well it kinda eclipses how bad demo has historically performed with its Legion kit.
If people want another example of how current tier set is applying make up to a deficient kit that’s been historically underperforming, look no further than survival hunters. The spec will literally go back to the dust bin without the tier set, just as demo has before.
Demo will be fine.
I mostly play Demonology, and on the M+ seassons i played i never felt like Demo was garbage.
It was not meta, and certaintly not as strong as its now, but it never made me think “oh my aim for ksm is impossible”.
but always had fun playing it.
The end point is, current demo is a improvement over what came before, an evolution of Legion>BfA>SL>Now.
The only thing i would bring back of Legion to now is the Doom Toolkit of Hand of Doom and Impending Doom[or rather, remove the soulshard of Doom, make it summon a Wild Imp instead].
The rest? what we have now is much better.
1 Like