There’s a big issue with DK’s and that’s an over-reliance on CD’s for our DPS, and it’s not forgiving if you mess those up. And you mentioning that if you can play AI perfect then you can do TOP chart DPS is the exact reason why there’s an issue. No one should have to stress about playing their character just to feel like they’re doing meaningful DPS and that doesn’t make it fun. I think a fun class with Meaningful DPS outweighs a class that is a heavy hitter if all the stars align. It’s clear where the issues are, and buffs won’t fix it, we just need them to offset things until meaningful changes happen, if they happen.
10 Likes
Whenever I see people say that “Frost is at the top” are probably players who are overlooking that Frost has among the least amount of parses along with Aff Locks and Survival Hunters. There are a lot more Unholy DK parses due to PI shenanigans and scaling.
Because yes, damage number wise, Frost is doing well. But that’s not really a metric of how coherent this specialization is:
For instance, how do you feel about spending Runic Power and Frost Strike if you are NOT using Breath of Sindragosa? How do you feel about your damage profile outside of Pillar of Frost?
Stuff like that. The class doesn’t bring sufficient utilities to bring either compared to other classes: You can’t compare Death Grip to Raid Buffs.
10 Likes
i wish they’d give us a talent that makes death grip pull us to a target if they can’t be pulled. would still keep us as the slow class but actually give us a critical movement option for frost especially in raid encounters against a boss that decides to instantly sprint somewhere/teleport. if balancing it is a problem, the effect could have it’s own reasonably high cooldown or it could even be choice noded with death’s echo to make it a situational pick.
3 Likes
who cares about pve they are the worst class in pvp
5 Likes
This for sure
1 Like
Your part of the game isn’t superior to ours and likewise. They’re both important to balance for. If you don’t care about that then your opinion is irrelevant.
8 Likes
It’s not just parse, it’s also most of the top io DKs are running frost now. I switched to frost and yea it overtook my unholy dmg. It is harder to play than Unholy tho, definitely, and I have an organized m+ group. So I personally do think if ppl have a big prob with frost dmg, they’re not playing it well or they’re suffering from pug tanks doing weird stuff or something.
That being said- Frost def feels bad outside cooldowns, despite overall dmg being very good. Unholy’s dmg profile I think it’s really nice, and I think obliterate should always hit relatively hard.
I think spending runic power in oblit build feels fine to me? It helps recharge runes and is aoe filler. Idk i don’t actually have a huge prob with it, though it’d be great if it felt a little more like Epidemic, where if I’m outside cooldowns but there’s still a lot of mobs, it still does something.
But best improvement that could be made to frost is just taking out/replacing death and decay reliance for cleave. It’s so clunky and flavorless, Pillar should just have cleave built in, or remorseless winter should be reworked to be the cleave mechanic, which would also fix RW’s problem of just being a thing you press when it’s off cooldown. They’re getting rid of mage rune, get rid of dnd for frost too lol.
2 Likes
Yessss D&D for cleave is terrible.
Also having a death grip that pulls you to a target like harpoon in the case the target isnt pullable would be amazing!
1 Like
it doesnt matter nearly as much as in pvp if you do a little less dmg in pve it means nothing unless you have a ego or something in pvp it is life and death
If there arent enough parses to say they are good then there arent enough parses to say its bad because “not enough parses”.
Representation doesnt equal to performance. Clearly. But you can only use the information that you have available and that available information is saying Frost is really good in this raid. People said that it was going to drop off a cliff, saying we are bottom of the pack and the only thing I can guess they were using is their own damage meter and their performance.
It looks fine to me. They serve their purpose.
The vast majority of the specs damage coming from Obliterate? Its bad. This doesnt mean that RP spenders are too weak, it can mean that Obliterate is just too strong not allowing other sources of damage to really play a major role. You can have 4 crappy runners on your team if Usain Bolt just blitzing everything.
But representation does = fun and if a class isnt fun then it needs a rework
8 Likes
Fun is subjective. Also how many people have these forums driven from the class with doom pills? People make it sound much worse then it is.
These forums do not give an accurate representation of the class as a whole. There are still buff DK threads despite Frost being #1 in the raid and Unholy being number 5.
We also see Blood as bottom of the tanks in terms of damage output, but its the 2nd most played. So its either fun or it brings something else to the table that it worth while and these forums would suggest it does neither.
Representation can mean anything. It can mean good performance, fun, it brings something that you cant ignore or many other things that you cant pinpoint the actual reason. Some people might find the spec fun but they dont like that 50% of the damage comes from 1 ability with certain builds which ruins the playstyle for them, maybe they dont like the playstyle of BoS but they like other playstyles come on here and hear “you can only play BoS” for years on end so they dont play it.
It could be absolutely anything.
Man. It is almost like the Wow Devs ask themselves: “Why do we even bother with class trees and try to make builds unique when all people care about is DPS ranks”
I get it, it’s Human nature. Wow cant control it. But the minute I heard about them redoing class trees, I just laughed. Everyone punches in icyviensdotcom and picks the build that does the most DPS. It is what it is.
Unholy is just a complete mess. Random DOT options, you’re a Plate Wearing, 2-Handed Weapon wielder…but you have ZERO…large damage attacks…It is downright goofy.
Frost. Is just mindless (to me). The damage is good, the CD’s are obnoxious, but again…boring.
Pick your poison.
I did.
It’s called. Console games.
I see no end to the Deathknight’s being ignored.
Suffer Always.
2 Likes
what do i think?
i think you feel you dont get enough attention in real life, so you came here to troll, because in your unhealthy mindset any attention is better than no attention.
From a PVE standpoint, I think tuning is decent enough. I can’t complain with the tuning, my DK even at this iLvL does pretty good dps.
However I believe the issues stem from both PVP and a very outdated design. And thats a warranted discussion.
2 Likes
I think there is a misconception right now that breath is still the “best” raid spec. 2H Oblit is just as good if not better. Definitely better on cleave fights this raid tier since there are no council sustained cleave. Pillar is up every 20-30 seconds I would not even call it a cd at this point. Damage profile has flattened and is more consistent with higher levels of haste and crit. I think I remember you talking last patch about how you wish 2H was better. Now is the time, its doing great and I see it just becoming stronger with more stats. Breath is not the go to for M+ at all either.
If they buffed the aoe size of dnd and made it last 4 seconds longer or even just gave us a 3rd charge for dnd this spec wouldn’t need anything else.
1 Like
Breath IS still the best spec in raid for frost. Oblit is great in m+.
The problem with oblit in raid is it’s far more difficult for the average player to approach their sim DPS as any downtime/misplays are more detrimental with oblits negative feedback loop. BoS will always be easier to approach sim dps for the average player as the current design stands. Even the current theoretical max sims still show BOS in the lead.
1 Like
So the easy thing to say is check heroic and normal raid.
Frost is an incredibly uptime reliant spec that massively benefits from externals like PI and being babied the whole rest of the raid. The reason why in mythic it does so well is that those players are padding on fights while being supplied everything they need.
That being said, it is VERY easy to be bad at frost because of how it is designed, with such immense punishment for downtime.
Frost doesn’t need a buff , it needs a light rework and reshuffling of its damage. Most people just hate how SO much of its damage is in cool downs. Example being that an obliterate with killing machine during pillar is like 180k to 250k for me depending on nelth trink proc where as a normal non pillar oblit is like 26k crit.
They should just tie cleaving strikes to remorseless winter and give that 2 charges, it would fix most issues in m+.
Or actually make frostscythe viable, I’d prefer that but cleaving strikes kinda destroys the reason for it existing.
i made a post just recently where i put in some suggestions to help make frost scythe better. to be honest, i think obliterate needs cleaving strikes to hit another 2 targets for right now, but we really should aim to get frostscythe fixed so it can be reverted back to only hitting 1 additional target. my post is called “Frost/DK Rework Ideas” and it’s just down the list a little if you want to read the suggestions, i put a good amount of time into formulating ideas and formatting the post. in short it tries to fix soul reaper and frostscythe’s interaction with the kit being poor, tries to address breath and gives DK some raid utility. each suggestion has it’s own note for why it was included.