Do Epics have extreme Horde bias?

PVP Battlegrounds
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But he’s right Bynir, Horde simply outplays Alliance in retail AV:

Distribution of Manpower

With regards to random PUG matches (PUGs vs PUGs):

  • Horde usually leaves 10-15 defenders South on D, sends the rest North to O
  • Alliance leaves 1-2 on defense for the entire North of the map (obviously not enough), sends 38-39 south to O

In other words, the Horde’s approach to the battle is much more balanced. Having some defense + a decent-sized offense >>>>> full mongo offense with zero D… since the bg is a towers race. Team A having some defense to slow down/delay team B almost always results in team A getting the upper hand on timers.

Damage Done / Killing Blows / Healing Done

In the games where the AV match actually lasts long enough for these stats to matter, Horde players almost always higher damage done / healing done than Alliance.

I mention this because things like Song Flower and similar player buffs don’t usually make any impact in AV (or the buffs mainly apply to NPCs). So such excuses (like Song Flower) don’t really apply here, and the damage done/killing blows chart tell quite a tale (doesn’t look good for Alliance).

Player Competence / Skill

Lots of Alliance players will cap a flag, and then just leave it/run off to PvP down the road. Leaving the flag wide open to getting backcapped by a random Horde Rogue or Feral Druid.

Or they leave only 1 Alliance to watch an important flag (such as IBT), and then act surprised when they see the “Iceblood Tower was taken by the Horde!” message :rofl:

I’ve also seen losses caused by clueless PUGs dragging in a “Commander” NPC into Drek’s room mid-fight, causing Drek to heal back to full and a loss (since Horde was already working on Vanndar).

Just a lot of dumb, minor mistakes that can really add up and contribute to a loss. Horde PUGs tend to have a little better situational awareness and make fewer of these types of mistakes.

Speed of Advance

Horde offense goes straight for the bunkers right out of the gate, they don’t waste any time with road PvP or fighting NPCs. I haven’t seen Horde go for Balinda first in ages. And of course, Horde actually defends the flags they cap instead of randomly running off.

On the other hand, Alliance offense often stops to fight Galv (complete waste of time :roll_eyes: ) and/or they get bogged down at the IBGY area for no apparent reason (might not even be any Horde guarding IBGY). This “standing around” in one location by like 20+ Alliance really slows down the Alliance, considering it’s a race to get towers.

Another common point where Alliance gets bogged down is Frostwolf GY. Multiple times I’ve witnessed Alliance PUGs dismount to fight the “Commander” NPC there, even as Horde is already entering Dun Baldar. They’ll waste like 6-7 minutes fighting this mini raid boss, while the Alliance bunker timers are ticking down. Alliance just seems SLOW overall on getting where they need to be in the bg.

…sometimes, it really is bad play.

The map imbalance thing has already been nerfed somewhat on the retail AV map, pretty sure the Classic AV map is much more “rigged” in comparison. In classic AV I can definitely see some of the map imbalances directly contributing to Horde wins.

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Do Epics have extreme Horde bias?

Only if you’re alliance.

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Or an honest Horde player who isn’t blinded by the Horde cult. I’m not going to pretend that winning Ashran with our 15% stat increase consumable on our side of the map, meaning we get 15% extra healing and damage than the Alliance does is due to outplaying the Alliance. My best wins is when Horde actually overcomes an obstacle and wins like coming back to win IoC when Alliance wins the battle at Hangar is sweet victory.

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But that is my exact point. The fact there is a commander at Frostwolf Graveyard is an imbalance, because there isn’t one at Stormpike Graveyard. He wasn’t added back to the game when all the other commanders were. It would be harder for Horde players to assault Dun Baldar if Commander Duffy was stationed at Stormpike Graveyard like he is supposed to be.

You and I have had this conversation before re: distributing ranks. It is much harder for the Alliance to defend their central assets than it is for Horde players because of the map design. In order for Alliance to pull off the same thing Horde can do at Iceblood Pass, they need to split their team into 3 different locations. The Horde only needs one.

I have seen tons of strong Alliance teams defend Stonehearth with all of their might (killing 2-3 waves of 10+ assaulting Horde) only to watch as the map crumbles around them because HEY Horde players have 4 different ways past SHB but there is only ever one route past Iceblood. I have not seen a team go to Galv out of the gate (aside from normally one person who goes in and pulls him and then realizes he is alone).

You can keep claiming it is superior play, and in some games it definitely is, but it doesn’t take away there are glaring imbalances on the map.

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Not really, most Horde PUGs would be smart enough to ignore the elite and/or CC it rather than waste so much time on it.

You would think most Alliance casuals would have learned about CC’ing “Commander” NPCs by now, judging by how well-received/popular Korrak’s Revenge was. Towards the end of the event, the PUGs signing up to Korrak’s Revenge AV seemed to be CC’ing the commander elites “by default” - I didn’t even have to tell them to do it.

A few Horde PUGs do usually tunnel vision on the Duffy commander, but like 90% actually keep their eyes on the prize and cap the bunkers + aid station as soon as possible.

This is not the case with Alliance PUGs. Up to 10-15 Alliance PUGs will literally dismount at Frostwolf GY to fight the commander NPC there… even though he is completely optional or can be CC’ed :laughing:

Instead of actually pushing inside the Horde base to cap the Frostwolf towers (the proper course of action), Alliance PUGs make the decision to stop at Frostwolf GY to fight a random NPC for 7-8 minutes… that has nothing to do with “map imbalance”, that seems more like bad play to me.

If an NPC is optional/CC’able, but towers are mandatory in order to win, why stop to PvE with some random NPC standing on the road? That’s 100% a player choice (bad play).

It’s interesting that you didn’t address my other points.

What is your response to Horde tending to have higher damage done / killing blows / healing done on the charts? Hard to explain that away as anything other than superior play, as the usual excuses like Song Flower etc do not really apply in AV.

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It doesn’t apply in AV at all because that is an Ashran specific item. I’m not sure what your point is here?

My response to this is that this is on a per-game basis and is entirely dependant on the group composition. If one team has more death knights, demon hunters, shadow priests and moonkins the likelihood of that team topping the meters over people who have warriors and rogues is extremely likely.

I would also suggest that there are a lot of players that cycle in and out of Alliance battlegrounds, especially if people see they cannot break past the choke. In the games I’ve had, it’s not unusual to see 3 Horde at the top, followed by 2 Alliance, a few more Horde etc. It’s a fairly even split, unless people leave and newbies come in.

We will never know if this is true because the Alliance-equivalent commander does not exist in the game.

I don’t understand how you can say it’s “not really an imbalance” that Horde players have one extra “mini boss” “that eats up 7-8 minutes” (all your words) at a crucial choke point, that bolsters and heals nearby NPCs and players?

I would also suggest that people trying to CC a commander at Stormpike Graveyard when there is any type of resistance (and there normally is) would be futile because of so many AE effects. It’s not the same as ones in bunkers.

How do they do this when he is not in the game?

My experience with AV has not been that Horde CCs the commanders. I have been in many defenses for SHB where the commander runs wild and kills people, and similarly where Commander Mortimer, alongside a group of 5 or so Alliance, push a larger Horde team out of Dun Baldar across the bridge and up to Icewing. Don’t try to tell me they are meaningless NPCs when their entire purpose is to slow the enemy team down and to help aid defense.

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He isn’t? Maybe I was thinking about Korrak’s Revenge AV. My mistake.

There’s so many named NPCs inside Dun Baldar, usually I don’t pay much attention to them.

But the point remains; smart PUGs would simply ignore such an NPC in the first place and focus on capping towers/objectives (which is what actually matters).

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How often do you see Dun Baldar fully capped without Stormpike Graveyard (not talking about bunkers being ninjad)? I’ve done thousands of AVs, and I’ve seen this only a handful of times (not including back in the old days of “BLITZ!11!”.

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Hordlings have the audacity to say “git gud” despite them having everything handed to them on a silver platter by Blizzard.

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The fact that SPGY has or does not have another NPC means nothing to winning AV in BFA.

If it takes you longer to cap FWGY because of an NPC you’re not doing it correctly.

The Iceblood Chokepoint is rarely ever an issue in AV now. Unless Alliance forces a Turtle, which is a tactic, but rarely works for Alliance in BFA.

I see you fluffed over the Hangar in IOC. For Horde going up the hill and getting there slightly later than Alliance makes it demonstrably more difficult for Horde to cap the Hangar flag and much easier for Alliance.

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I know right? :joy:

Especially when you consider the fact that specific commander NPC at Frostwolf GY is completely optional… like, literally he doesn’t matter at all to the outcome of the match. He doesn’t give any points, doesn’t “help” with any objectives, literally a waste of time to dismount to fight him. It’s just an NPC with mini-raid boss levels of health.

And yet, Alliance PUGs love to dismount (sometimes up to 15-20) to fight the commander NPC there for like 7-8 minutes :rofl:

Stopping at Galv right out of the gate is equally dumb, he doesn’t matter unless it’s one of those once-in-a-blue moon turtle games where reinforcements are close. In those games that come down to reinforcements, he might matter since he’s worth 100 points. Outside of that though, another complete waste of time/manpower.

When like 20-25 Alliance PUGs go straight to Galv at the start, you pretty much already know it’s a loss :woozy_face:

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So if it is rarely an issue, what does it matter if they open it up a little? And how come you often see a group of 10-15 Horde there in most AV games…? Again, Alliance players wanting to defend the exact same assets would need to split in 3 places.

Horde has to pass SPGY to get to Dun Baldar. Given that the Iceblood choke is rivalled by Dun Baldar and its bridge (apparently), anything that helps the Alliance make a last stand there is a pretty big “nothing”.

The difference of three seconds it takes for Horde to get up the same mountain Alliance has to climb is completely and utterly a moot point. The flag can’t be capped in three seconds.

You and Gdtroll can claim he means nothing to the match and if it makes you feel better you can both thump your chests and go “ME HORDIE ME STRONKER THAN PUNY ALIENC” but it doesn’t take away the following:

  • FWGY is the penultimate graveyard in AV for the Alliance. If the Horde is pooled up in Frostwolf Village and Relief Hut (and by your own admissions, they normally are), taking that graveyard is an important move so you don’t have to run all the way from Iceblood/Snowfall/wherever your nearest GY is.
  • Just because you two claim imbalances don’t matter doesn’t: a) make it less of an imbalance and b) make that claim true.

I note neither you nor Gdtroll commented on my question about how often you see Dun Baldar capped without Stormpike Graveyard.

If there was an elite mini-raid boss at SPGY, which there should be, we would see stronger defenses of that area given that in more games than not the Alliance are often putting up a strong defense in that area and then their base when SPGY falls. Simple as that.

I also note he completely ignored my point about Galv being skipped in all games apart from a lone hunter pulling him occasionally.

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None of the current issues are as bad as the pink wall in IOC that lasted for a few weeks.

For those that don’t remember there was a bug in the game where once the alliance knocked down the horde wall in IOC a large pink square stood in its place. The pink wall was unbreakable. The only way for alliance to win was to break down the first wall then everyone either had to run to hangar to jump in or catapult into the horde base. If you didn’t control hangar there was a line of 30-40 alliance all spam clicking the catapults to get in the base.

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But he’s right Bynir, I rarely see Horde PUGs/randos actually “defend” the Iceblood graveyard itself. Most of the time a small force of like 7-8 Horde will turtle themselves up in IBT, but that’s about it.

There might be one lone Hunter or Fury Warrior that stands next to the actual IBGY flag, but of course he is quickly killed/picked off by the approaching Alliance herd.

So the truth is IBGY is a total non-issue in like 95% of PUG games, the so-called “IBGY chokepoint strat” is really only still utilized by Horde premades/coordinated non-PUGs.

Grit is correct here as well, in most PUG games the Alliance base is completely empty for like the first half of the match anyways (due to either laziness, incompetence, or both). So whether or not there’s an extra NPC in the area is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

It might matter if Alliance PUGs actually left a few people behind to defend their base… but they don’t (Alliance PUGs have close to 0 Dun Baldar defense in pretty much every single AV match).

Most PUGs in Alliance AV just follow the herd south, and almost never recall or try to backcap. A few might say “backcap” in the chat, but no one actually does it (again, probably due to laziness, incompetence, or both) :laughing:

Disagree friend, the Alliance getting to the hangar flag a good 4-5 seconds sooner can actually make a pretty big difference - if Alliance PUGs are quick on the draw.

I’m well aware of this 4-5 second window of time when playing my Alliance alt, and specifically plan my CD’s and CC around it. Assuming some decent Alliance players, you can lay down a lot of CC on the slope/hill and significantly slow down the Horde.

With enough well-timed CC and AOE slows, you can easily prevent like 50-60% of the Horde team from even making it to the top of the hill (pretty huge deal). So in the opening first few moments of the teamfight it might be 40 Alliance vs 25 Horde or 40 Alliance vs 30 Horde, when you factor out the 10-15 Horde still stuck/bogged down by Alliance CC on the hillside ramp.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that IoC favors the Alliance, just from the minor map imbalances alone :thinking: Another example is hangar being able to “self defend” itself due to the Alliance gunship’s unique ability to shoot the hangar flag (Horde’s gunship cannot do the same).

Despite IoC being an Alliance-favored map, the win-rates of both factions seem to be roughly 50/50… which tells me that Horde has superior play on this map as well (when factoring in that the map is slightly rigged in Alliance’s favor).

Except, an optional NPC does not = “imbalance”

We’ve been over this, just skip the commander NPCs and focus on trying to win.

If PUGs/randos choose to stop and fight some random NPC on the road, whose fault is that? :face_with_raised_eyebrow: That’s not “faction imbalance”, or Blizzard’s fault, or dev’s fault - that’s just bad play imo.

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The thought that the company leans more towards a certain faction is laughable at best

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If this was true they wouldn’t have bothered to fix the 900% health imbalance the Alliance experienced in Korrak’s.

Needless to say, I’m pretty sure we are experiencing different AVs because in yours people still seem to be going to the captains and stopping to fight the commander at FWGY by choice rather than being forced to, when in mine we often have 5-10 people in Dun Baldar, 10 people in IBT and 10 in TP.

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I brought this up in a BG and a few Horde mercs were angered by it because it shows that Blizzard does have a Horde bias.

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Well let’s face it Blizz can’t have Alliance winning AV like they used to. Horde tears were streaming through the fields of strife. IOC was also an Alliance stronghold, once again horde tears running down from the hangar, and Blizz runs to their aid.

So now horde dominate a good overall percentage of the randoms. Epics making up a big percentage of that.

They just could not leave things alone. Just one of the many reasons people leave the game, no balance.

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The last major change in AV favored Alliance. Just in case you don’t know what it is, it’s putting SH GY up on a hill.

Besides a few other minor changes in the last couple years, nothing else has changed.

As for IoC, Alliance just play dumb there.

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I have played a lot of AV’s and the only time I have ever seen ally at DB is when horde has forced a turtle by taking all the GY’s. It’s typically empty with maybe 3-4 at most hanging around .

I do agree with your point that they shd put the commander back at the GY. Pretty sure it won’t make any difference though

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