Do devs not realize button bloat is a terrible design?

[Vladamire-eonar]

@Nuwala-mankrik

well that dont say much for you with your 6500 considering this is a classic character with around 5 hours total play time

Says a ton actually. 5000 of it came before I left the game and are from Classic and the first 2 xpacs. I just came back a month ago. A thing easily seen in my public profile. Thanks for proving though that you love to talk about a game you have no history in and ignored my actual points for that very reason.

[Nuwala-mankrik]

ok champ. what a paragraph full of excuses.

[Darkbwandon-ashkandi]

@Boredumb-alexstrasza

I for one like having the abilities I have and I’m getting sick of this push to dumb things down. And I don’t understand why the forums is suddenly getting on this “there are too many buttons” schtick all of a sudden.

I don’t know. Maybe they’re suddenly full of this because classes are CURRENTLY being reworked and getting more keybinds and bloat? Do you FEEL that what people currently post about shouldn’t have a relationship between the current events or do you just not pay attention to current events?

I have no idea if a streamer complained about button bloat. It wouldn’t surprise me. If they’re covering WoW news, then it should be a topic that comes up.

@Boredumb-alexstrasza

Then what was your point when you talked about players leaving in the context of button bloat?

That they aren’t causally linked? Then who cares?

My point was demonstrating that the link they claim to exist or the relationship between button bloat and subscribers doesn’t have the relationship they claim it has(That there is a relationship between the number of hotkeys in a spec and subscribers). It’s how people learn things.

[Rabititus-shuhalo (Rabititus)]

Just for the sake of argument, and my morbid curiosity, which abilities do you suggest be removed?

Change my mind, describe your idea of a better rotation. Keeping in mind there are 12 classes and balance is a thing…

[Merpish-sargeras]

@Boredumb-alexstrasza

Did Asmongold or some streamer give out some forum talking points or something?

Basically yes. Asmon’s whole bit is that he’s mad at wow for leaving him behind, citing complexity and tedium despite the game being the most accessible, and least tedious it’s ever been.

So his sycophants go around parroting and creating new things to be mad at in hopes their daddy will feature their forum post on his stream so they can farm a bunch of “SO TRUE DOOD” in chat.

[Vladamire-eonar]

@Merpish-sargeras

Basically yes. Asmon’s whole bit is that he’s mad at wow for leaving him behind, citing complexity and tedium despite the game being the most accessible, and least tedious it’s ever been.

He came back? I thought he left because he cant support Blizzard anymore because of some woke nonsense and went to FFXIV? Whatever, dont even answer I dont care lol…also not shocked if people that watch streamers would troll for them and it would make sense because you would have to have no life to do both and I can see people posting here with more forum posts than achievement points which is a riot.

[Brewa-hyjal]

@Merpish-sargeras

No class in this game has 20 buttons they have to actively press to perform optimally.

I have 40 keybinds on Mythic Sark… but Brewmaster is likely the high end for buttons in the game, right now.

In no particular order:

1. Transcendence
2. Transcendence: Transfer
3. Roll
4. Expel Harm
5. Keg Smash
6. Blackout Kick
7. Rising Sun Kick
8. Spear Hand Strike
9. Weapons of Order
10. Provoke
11. Spinning Crane Kick
12. Crackling Jade Lightning
13. Ox Statue
14. Target Ox Statue + Provoke AoE taunt macro
15. Dismiss statue (so it doesn’t make shenanigans with adds in P3)
16. Healthstone/Healing Pot Macro
17. Bonedust Brew
18. Dampen Harm
19. Tiger’s Lust
20. Paralysis
21. Breath of Fire
22. Beacon from Beyond
23. Ring of Peace
24. Diffuse Magic
25. Fortifying Brew
26. Potion
27. Exploding Keg
28. Celestial Brew
29. Black ox Brew
30. Purifying Brew
31. Tiger Palm
32. Vivify
33. Leg Sweep
34. Stoneform
35. Touch of Death
36. Chi Burst
37. Summon Niuzao
38. Zen Meditation (with Celestial Brew macro’d in)
39. Gateway Control Shard
40. targeting macro for large adds in phase 2

It’s 39 if we don’t count the targeting macro.

That’s a lot!

And I use them all.

But yeah, Brewmaster + Mythic Sark. It’s a lot.

[Darkbwandon-ashkandi]

@Merpish-sargeras

Basically yes. Asmon’s whole bit is that he’s mad at wow for leaving him behind, citing complexity and tedium despite the game being the most accessible, and least tedious it’s ever been.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because Asmond didn’t say something, doesn’t change the argument. I realize this would be somebody’s attempt to discredit the position that specs are too bloated. But did you know that not all ideas originate from Asmond? Most of us don’t watch him. In fact, it is MORE likely he steals his ideas from places like here. It is a lot easier than coming up with them on his own.

@Brewa-hyjal

It’s 39 if we don’t count the targeting macro.

That’s a lot!

Thank you for that. I typed all my rogue’s out once on another similar thread, but they never end up responding. They just live in a world where if they say something is true, they believe it becomes true. When presented with evidence that they’re wrong, they just move on to the next thing.

So it’s either

1. They have no idea how to actually play a spec well and the number of keybinds involved to play it well…But pretend to be some sort of expert.
   or
2. They’re lying and they know they’re lying.

I prefer 1 because it’s less evil, just ignorant. But perhaps a more sinister problem brewing in the world today.

[Calmdown-demon-soul]

I agree with the fact there are a ton of useless spells this expac. Like all the slow movement speed spells that some specs have and are designed to end up putting points in because there is NO OTHER CHOICE. This MADE WORSE by tank pulling entire dungeons and the addition of the SPEED being able to be put on alot of things. It makes all those spells really confusing to new players.
Honestly also they are really really into drowning us this expac with useless bag items, spells, currency, materials…like Awakened elements…Zapthrottle inhaler…wow those have to be the worst materials ever to farm. Like how they keep figuring out how to make things worse is beyond me. Personally I blame the gnomes. More than likely tho Blizz is def doing all of this on purpose.

[Merpish-sargeras]

@Brewa-hyjal

I have 40 keybinds on Mythic Sark… but Brewmaster is likely the high end for buttons in the game, right now.

I’m willing to grant you that Brewmaster on Sark is likely going to be making use of nearly all their utility given the particular complexities of the encounter; however, I don’t think that using Brewmaster (notoriously known for its button count in DF) on Sark is really that useful in this conversation.

Side note, do you really use CJL on Sark? Maybe when he’s 99% dam reduced in transitions?

If we’re talking about the average player, doing average content, they are definitely not going to be needing 40 binds, and even if they have that many binds, it’s incredibly unlikely they need to use them all in the content they are doing.

@Darkbwandon-ashkandi

They’re lying and they know they’re lying.

No, OP’s post is disingenuous, and he and you, know it. They are making it seem like every single spec in the game is just overspilling with buttons they need to actively be pressing, and that’s just not true. There are specs that have lots of buttons, but there are also a huge number of specs with very few buttons they need to press.

[Brewa-hyjal]

@Merpish-sargeras

Side note, do you really use CJL on Sark?

Of all the abilities I listed, it’s by far the least likely. But occasionally if we’re running with no Mistweaver so I’m the only source of Mystic Touch, and I happen to be sitting out away from the team in P2 because I’ve run out for my bomb to explode, I might CJL the large add to get Mystic Touch on it. But it’s definitely (along with Paralysis) a marginal case.

[Veidmann-zuljin]

@Vladamire-eonar

So what you are saying is passives are the game playing the class and actives are you, playing your class.

No the actives are you still playing the game and your class but the passives are enhancements to the actives .

Let’s put it this way . Imagine it as street racing with a stock engine with say a Hellcat engine . It’s good and it is fast and it is fun. Now imagine adding Nos to it and it now has become a whole new level of fun because it is now faster.

You still have to step on the gas , shift the gears and steer the car either way .

[Veidmann-zuljin]

@Darkbwandon-ashkandi

WE didn’t scream about having too few. In fact pretty much nobody asked for more.

Really people have been asking for years for an unpruning . Not only in here but also in WoW Reddit threads and directly to the devs in their twitter .

If no one was screaming /saying there were too few the devs would of left it how it was during the great prune.

Just because you weren’t complaining about having less buttons doesn’t mean others did not complain .

[Bladefall-black-dragonflight]

@Opalunaiya-bleeding-hollow

Actually, the problem is that you think people that thrive on button bloat are “many”, and those who are discouraged by it are “few”

Exactly this

[Aidsdaddy-stormrage]

Its wild to me people dont use a gaming mouse. Literally 12 buttons you can hit with your thumb. Modify with shift and alt. Omg wow 24 more keybinds

People whine too much

[Bladefall-black-dragonflight]

@Sendryn-sentinels

The

Vanilla had a good amount of talent choices but almost all of them were either passives, buffs to current abilities or talents that swaps 1 ability to another (IE backstab-> mutilate )

Somewhere along the line blizzard changed this system to incorporate more and more abilities

[Veidmann-zuljin]

@Boredumb-alexstrasza

I for one like having the abilities I have and I’m getting sick of this push to dumb things down. And I don’t understand why the forums is suddenly getting on this “there are too many buttons” schtick all of a sudden.

To me it feels like some people want to be Participation Trophy players.

" I want to play and be rewarded but I don’t want to put forth any effort so I’ll just walk as the rest of you run"

[Grendle-argent-dawn]

@Bladefall-black-dragonflight

Somewhere along the line blizzard changed this system to incorporate more and more abilities

It’s my belief that it was always going to be the intention. Vanilla WoW was released in a good enough state. There was always a plan to increase the number of talents, specs, races, etc.

The beauty of Vanilla WoW wasn’t a result of perfect game design. It was because the devs had to choose what meant the most to them and implement it in a way that worked in the timeframe they had. Had they an infinite amount of time and resources it surely would not have been as good a product as it was. It would have been much more bloated and unrecognizable. The expansions of WoW showed that given too much time and money they will eventually overdo it.

[Sendryn-sentinels]

@Bladefall-black-dragonflight

Vanilla had a good amount of talent choices but almost all of them were either passives, buffs to current abilities or talents that swaps 1 ability to another

No and we still had a boatload of buttons. Vanilla was also never mentioned.

@Bladefall-black-dragonflight

Somewhere along the line blizzard changed this system to incorporate more and more abilities

No they didn’t. They pruned it and gave is a six choice talent system, pruned it some more and finally left us at a point where there was no other option but to level squish until they could rebuild a new system.

Fun fact: even with the bit of unpruning they did, I still have less buttons than I did in Vanilla.

Unpruning brought back a couple of buttons for each class, it did not bring in a boatload. And the new talent trees are literally the same abilities we had taken out of the spellbook and put into the talent tree.

That was specifically one of the largest complaints about the new system, because it wasn’t “new.”

But thank you for proving that you’ve barely played this game and have no understanding of the history of talent systems and buttons.

[Veidmann-zuljin]

@Rabititus-shuhalo

Just for the sake of argument, and my morbid curiosity, which abilities do you suggest be removed?

I would say the abilities that they could just as easily not keybind in the first place without having Blizz have to prune anything.

My problem with these people wanting abilities pruned is the fact that they are all going

“Blizz I don’t like all of these abilities so prune them and make everyone else have to play the way I want to play”

You don’t see people that wanted more abilities returned going

"Blizz give back our abilities and make those that want less have to use all the abilities "

No we all have gone " Use as many or as few as you want , all we are asking for more options"