Discuss: Class Balancing (Prot Warrior + Bear) - Kris Zierhut quote

“We will be watching class balance closely, and my perspective is we should just let it be, unless a class is pushed out entirely and the community says ‘this class is complete junk, we don’t even bring them anymore’ and then I think we should take a look at it” - Kris Zierhut

Recently in the Wrath Classic Developer Interview with Community Council the above quote was suggested as a step that may be required to resolve some outlying class problems to do with scaling.

This also plays inline with the quote “In a way, bringing the item level down on gear will actually help with class balance in general.” from Kris that has been discussed in this forum the past few days.

https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/news/wrath-classic-developer-interview-with-community-council-item-level-squish-pvp-328553


So the question is to Blizzard devs and to get the feelings of others, would it be a reasonable request to have Protection Warrior & Feral Druid looked at and modified in their scaling values to have better raw mitigation in order to make up for the lack of talents such as Will of the Necropolis - Blood Death Knights & Ardent Defender - Protection Paladins, with potentially a minor tweak to their threat scaling for as well?


While Bears are considered barely viable by the community and the influence of hardcore ex-private server players the meta is heavily pushing that Bears should only ever be a flexible off tank and DPS due to the fact that we don’t get armor from rings or weapons anymore and a heavy penalty to bonuses. This pushes the meta especially in Heroic modes to not even include a Bear or Protection Warrior in your roster line-up going into Heroic ToC, ICC and Hardmode Ulduar fights with the majority of the community unlikely to even accept Bears as pug Normal Mode tanks for ICC. This brings us to the sad point that due to lack of consistent tankiness we find that anything but experienced healers who can predict incoming damage are capable of carrying Protection Warriors through the content and as we’ve seen it is already going to be not viable for the average player to roll a Protection Warrior even in Naxx 25 man because they will get 1 shot by Patchwork who can hit up to 29k in a single hateful meaning if the encounter hateful strikes the warrior twice, they’re dead and as a result the community refuses to allow Protection Warriors to even participate with Bears being the barely viable and low threat producing tank that will begrudgingly used if there is not a spare DK who can’t respec to Blood on the spot.

With dual talents a lot of issues are solved in terms of bringing certain classes but it also exaggerates the current issues that will cause a toxic meta of people pulling out the tagline 'We’re struggling so can we just have the Paladin or DK tank it?" resulting in the Protection Warrior being benched and the Feral Druid forced to remain as a Cat DPS due to following the path of least resistance that players love. Further this is LK and any class Tank should be able to participate and tank viably every encounter in the game which at the moment is not the case. Unfortunately due to Private Server experiences where Protection Warrior balancing was even more inconsistent there were fights like Algalon that were bugged and never fixed or talents bugged and never fixed that made the already under performing Protection Warrior the considered ‘unviable tank’. The public opinion is already out there and a lot of pug groups have resulted in dead Warrior tanks on the Patchwork encounter. This situation is only going to get worse and needs to be resolved.

To this extent we know Bears are going to be barely much better and due to Faerie Fire not proccing ClearCasting for Ferals kitty DPS, they’re on the chopping board next because they just don’t ‘bring as much as stacking more Death Knights or a Ret who can respec Prot as your 3rd Tank’. Who knows, a Fury Warrior might replace a Feral in a raid comp in ToC & ICC forcing guilds to drop their Ferals in the later part of the game.

Not only is the concern mitigation and the ability to survive encounters due to not having a free save as it were but also in the later part of the game less ability to produce effective threat due to DPS scaling so high late game which might mean tweaking to threat multipliers or just a increase to damage done by Prot Warriors and Bears especially when Bloodlust / Hero will be used on every fight in this new Classic Meta. There are many Private Server commentators who have informed many players that Bears have terrible threat and won’t be ideal as is the situation with Protection Warriors as the gear and expansion expand. With many old posts on forums discussing the problems that existed back in the day to the threat ceiling issues with Tanks and DPS.


So what do you think? Is it reasonable to consider some minor scaling improvements for Protection Warriors and Bears so they can fairly participate in what was suppose to have been the “bring the player not the class expansion”?

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Truth is there is no issue with ProtWar or Bears. The issue comes is caused by 2 things- streamers who push this crap every day, and guilds who believe it matters because so-and-so said it. Yes in theory a ProtPally is best for MT, again in theory. Here is the part people fail to consider: in your “SC or SemiHC” guild it WILL NOT MATTER. This is based on simulated data minmax’ing every dps at maximum dps, every tank at maximum threat and a perfect fight (cooldown usage, pre-pot and in fight pot for dps boost, using +damage boosts pefectly lined up with other boosts for maximum effect), you’re guild is likely NOT doing that. If you are relying on Ardent Defender to save your tank on boss fights every time, you already screwed up somewhere.

Stop believing what someone says just because they are on Twitch or youtube. Remember when they said a dps warrior would never see a serious raid group in TBCC because they sucked and couldn’t do any dps? They sure were right about that one…

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That’s the issue, a lot of guilds do rely and resort to the easiest path. My old guild forced me to drop my Prot War as a tank or I’d get benched in a dad gamer guild in T5. In SWP the MT was a Warrior and they forced him to play a DPS. I wanted to play my Prot Warrior in LK and when brought up in pre-LK discussions was laughed and told no. In a dad gamer guild. Yes Warriors can tank almost every encounter within reason, that doesn’t change the fact that people are still going to refuse to bring them because people don’t want the risk of a wipe because it costs them time if they have to wipe more times that could be prevented.

While my understanding is that Warriors can tank every encounter as it was done in Original LK, the meta has shifted to the path of least resistance. It still won’t change the perception of Prot Warriors. Most of Classic WoW has been about, how do we skip mechanics? Usually that comes to just out dpsing or healing the mechanics so they’re not a problem. Unfortunately in LK you kind of just can’t do that anymore. Its the beginning of not being able to carry potato’s who stand in the fire and Will of the Necropolis and Ardent Defender, help skip mechanics for tanks.

The second they say they are private server, ignore them. As has been quoted in another thread, a bear was one of the tanks in the FIRST ICC 25man heroic clear. The FIRST ONE. Are bear’s viable, hell yeah. Are private server players, hell no.

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Honestly people who say Paladins and DK tanks are the only choice are just nerds who have no idea what they’re talking about. Any tank can MT or OT the content. All that’s going on is the “meta” mentality that’s been in here since classic dropped.

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He has a solid point, while you can easily clear content with Warriors and Bears, the change in playability has already started. Faerlina already has a massive over saturation of paladins and guilds consistently recruiting for tanks (DK, Pally) and directly excluding Warrios and Bears.

Streamers are definitely a main issue along with forums, much like this one, but blizzard has failed to do a quality balance. DK’s introduced to eliminate a tank shortage, and they will for a time. But when over-saturation happens, which it will, many players will re-roll classes because you cannot run raids effectively with nothing but paladins and dk’s. Alot of the player base will be rejected from raiding due to re-rolling a DK or Pally and guilds not having room for them on rosters. In turn, a shortage of tanks will occur again.

Blizzards biggest failure in the world is not rolling with the META and what streamers say, it has a ever lasting and dynamic impact on gameplay and customer retention.

Balance the tanks, scale down Pally’s and DK’s, if they dont, they will certainly lose a lot of their player base.

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I’m actually re-rolling pallie, but to heal because no one wanted to pallie heal in the guild lol. But yea, you can 100% clear all content with any of the tanks. In some instances it will be easier for one or another, but they all can do the job.

I was looking at Earpugs Arena class guide and the highest viewed part of the video was the Paladin portion. Because Paladins are finally viable as all 3 specs in PvP and PvE it’s bring a lot of interest. Also access to two Legendary weapons.

The only WoW Classic influencer at the moment who’s going to represent Warriors in the Classic media is Zirene and he may not be Prot after Naxx.

Every conversation and podcast about tanks is, don’t play a Warrior because they’re bad and if you’re a Feral, you’re a third tank only in 25 man and Cat otherwise. So the conversation really forces classes and players into very specific roles. With the discussion of nerfing ilvl it also means Ferals are more likely to not be brought as the flex tank after Ulduar because of the even reduced DPS.

A big portion of this conversation is that Warriors and Bears are so bad that if you think you’re going to MT as one you’re letting the entire raid team down.

Well that’s the point of the post, this communy discussuon they had with streammers matters. Hell, there’s several videos where Sly and Sever both states bringing a warrior as a tank shows how bad you are. If I’m watching that and enjoy a warrior tank, that messes with what I want to play. DK should be strong because it’s a healer class, but the original post is accurate.

Blizzard failed to re-address classes and has created a major imbalance. Mark my words, phase one will be littered with dks and pallys (as we all know) and barely any feral or warriors tanking for raids. A complete and utter tank shortage is coming and it will be faster than we think.

Blizzard has to do better, they have to! Otherwise…this is a giant waste of time and I’ll spend money elsewhere. Balance tanks, that’s all they have to do and this game will thrive.

Spoken like people that were not pushed out of a guild during TBC as a prot warrior for a druid tank because they provided a 5% crit buff and a warrior didn’t.
Lots of guilds just gave prot warriors ultimatums to reroll or be replaced in TBC because they were not the “meta” tank.

While I did end up finding a guild that allowed me to play protection, I was set back weeks upon weeks of progress looking for a guild that would take one. I know many warriors that were in a similar situation. Forced to play an alt druid just to stay in their raid then at some point later they were allowed to bring their prot warrior for a raid or got to go fury while their tank spot was filled by someone else.

All these “prot warriors are fine” people probably will never clear any heroic content, or if they do they will be months behind everyone else.

Prot warriors may be part of 2nd or 3rd raid teams in those higher end guilds, maybe they will find that extremely rare spot in a guild that has a rogue that doesnt want to expose armor or for some other specific niche reason why they will want a prot warrior. But the fact of the matter is prot warriors and to a lesser degree bear druids are in a bad position in Wrath, yet people will just say “prot warriors are fine” and pretend like everything is OK.

Revir is right whole heartedly.

I mained a Prot Warrior for the majority of TBC and til last month, Ultimately I was asked by my previous guilds to re-roll another toon entirely or I could go Fury and even then I would not be guaranteed a raid slot.

This angered me and caused me to make my own guild, where we dont discriminate against any classes or specs. We are happily clearing content and I now have the luxury of taking my prot warrior into raids.

But the sad part of it, I had to do it…because Warriors and Bears get the shaft and will continue to get it well in WOTLK. Faerlina is a pretty big populated server, when consistent recruiting posts are going up excluding them as tanks…Blizzard needs to step in.

I definitely look forward to being the dungeon king class though, just wish Bear Druids got some of the same treatment. Paladins and DK’s are going to run WOTLK and ultimately ruin alot of gameplay for alot of players. Why should I have to re-roll to fit into the Meta? Answer is…I wont be. Blizzard just needs to do better

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If they were going to do this then they should have started in Classic, and not wait until Wrath. I’m of the opinion no changes.

If anyone watched the Druid podcast with Sarthe you can tell it’s very much a case of Ferals even as a DPS won’t be stacked. Because the Speed Running and Hardcore meta is driving what the average guild is going to want to roster. So quite a concern indeed. In a way you really are the Rogue of TBC. A lot of suggestions where you either have the Fury / Feral as flex 3rd tank and your Frost respecs to Blood as your OT otherwise you main tank with your Paladin.

But it’s already happening and just you watch this week unfold when guilds start recruiting as to who they will be looking for an who’s getting cut from the roster.

That’s my experience and it sucks.

nailed it.

The only way you can reasonably buff prot warrior or feral druid is improving their threat, pve debuffs, or pve rotation somehow. If you improve their mitigation or damage directly, especially feral, it will become overpowered in pvp.

Not saying it isn’t doable, it just has to be done in such a way it doesn’t ruin the arena meta which is actually fairly well balanced in late wotlk.

and we used to bring 4 rogues in tbc

…times change

As much as i’d loved to get more buffs, it isn’t needed. All that is needed is some basic good play. I won’t be MT not because I’m a prot warrior, but because our current MT is several times better in awareness and other tank skills, as it should be.

Also that patchwerk example is a bit vague. Are they getting 1 shot or taking 2 hatefuls? Because no tank should be taking 2 hatefuls in a row.

Don’t forget Prot Wars being able to 1v2 in arenas near the end of Wrath.

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I would gladly trade high damage viability in dungeons to actually be a real main tank…

I even run a guild and I wouldnt make a Warrior or Bear a Main Tank because of how weak their survivability is in comparison to a DK or Pally.

I know you cannot have the best of both worlds, but seeing servers today and what classes are rolled the most…theres already a problem.

I predicted it before and will say it again, prepare for a tank implosion in less than six months.