DH third spec (ranged)

Hello fellow DHs and wow gamers alike.

In Legion when the DH was released, Blizzard told us that they weren’t able to include a third spec. They said the idea may be possible at some undisclosed time in the future.

There have been rumors of Blizzard developing a new class, and whether this is true or not, 8.2 or 8.3 would be an opportune time to add a third DH spec to the game.

The main advantage this could bring to groups that are heavily melee based; it would give some added flexibility for DHs to play a ranged spec and take some pressure off of melee classes to have to keep up with a range alt, for specific fights.

It would also just be cool and fun to have more options for a spec that feels fast paced, but is somewhat lacking in depth and abilities.

This has been done before historically with Druids, so adding a new spec to the fame does have precedent. Also there are a number of ranged glaive and fel abilities that DHs have lorewise, so this wouldn’t be unjustifiable from a mechanical perspective.

The disclaimer of course is that it would need to be balanced, so it’s somewhere between the currently OP Havoc spec, and the currently UP Vengeance spec.

I believe you can do this Bliz! Let’s get it on the radar, before the next expansion to create some excitement and keep player interest from slumping.

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This has been brought up a few times during Legion. I’m all for the option to play ranged as a DH. I’m not sure that there is justification lore-wise for it, but they can always add something to fix that. However, realistically, at the very earliest, this would happen at 9.0. Considering that it took till 8.1 to fix a few of the classes/specs and that they developed a system that was heavily flawed and didn’t realize it until way late in the beta, the odds of this happening is pretty slim.

It’s a good thought though.

Would it use the Glaives of the Deceiver? No Artifact Weapon to use through Legion leveling would be a thing.

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Illidan got flaming fel pets, we deserve flaming fel pets!

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I’m super down.

I’ve thought about this alot. I would like to see an agile ranged caster type. I could get into a bow/throwing star type physical ranged spec. But something that would get me hyped would be for the demon hunters to adopt the void into their repertoire!

The line of thinking I’ve used is with the events that surrounded the creation of the void elves, why wouldn’t the demon hunters utilize an enemy power to make them stronger in order to defeat them. (Sound familiar?? xD) I suppose this might jeopardize their current identity but there are some moves that are already integrated into the toolkit atm like Darkness. Seems like a void move to me. I don’t know the lore behind the Nether and it’s connection to demons and the fel but Netherwalk isn’t screaming demon anyway.

Also with this new spec you could make void elves and perhaps Nightbourne the choice of becoming a demon hunter as well. The thought would be that the void elves taught the demon hunters about void control and vice versa. I would even go to far to consider arcane in the mix as well but I feel like I’m already out on a limb here lol.

Maybe give this 3rd spec a pseudo blink but through void gates. Or a limited stealth. Maybe they get a voidy marksman hunter vibe. What are yalls thoughts?

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Also I would like to see a side flip. I think that would make our movement abilities really dynamic. Keep Havoc the way it is, but make the 3rd ranged spec have a side flip and the backflip for evasion.

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A profoundly mobil ranged DPS spec would be that unpopular with other classes, I imagine.

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I’m just wondering if they are ever going to even implement a 3 spec

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Evidence leans towards “no”. They specifically said when they added the class that the reason is only had two specs wasn’t because of limitations on design time or anything, but because they couldn’t think of a way of adding a third spec, whether DPS or tank, without watering down one or both of the existing specs.

As an example, one of the more common suggestions I see is to split Havoc into two specs, one based on the traditional Demonic build (ie. Eye Beam, Demon’s Bite usage, the Demonic effect being innate, etc), and the other based on Demon Blades, with or without Momentum included innately. The latter specialization would likely have to steal skills from Havoc to differentiate the two. Perhaps the Demonic sepecialization would only have one charge of Fel Rush, and lack Blade Dance (since they have Eye Beam for AoE). The Demon Blades specialization would likely lack Eye Beam (though perhaps they’d have Fel Barrage or Fury of the Illidari in its place, plus Blade Dance). And perhaps it would lack Metamorphosis entirely, instead using Chaos Blades or Nemesis as its primary DPS cooldown. It would likely have Demon Blades as the hardcoded default with no Demon’s Bite option.

Net effect is that each spec is roughly half of what Havoc is now. And if that’s how we get a third spec, what on earth have we gained by it? Specs are no easier to balance against each other than builds within a spec, so it’s not like it would change the probability that both playstyles would be viable concurrently (which, btw, they are already phenomenally close in balance, Demonic just wins in current content because of the AoE focus of Uldir and because of how astoundingly frustrating Momentum is to use in anything more complex than a Patchwerk sim). All we’d have is two specs that are both roughly half as dynamic and well-rounded as Havoc.

Now, all of that said, a ranged specialization has the most chance of success from that perspective, because it would require the last theft from Havoc, and would innately be differentiated substantially simply due to the ranged part. The reason that never made much headway, I suspect, is because the lore simply doesn’t fit it. DHs throughout the Warcraft games have always been high-intensity in-your-face melee scrappers, so having them sit at range would feel…odd for the class’s overall fantasy.

The two most common suggestions I’ve seen for that ranged specialization are two make one based on Wardens, using thrown glaives attacks, and a shadow-type caster using demon-inspired spells and abilities from range. The former is a significant stretch, since the Wardens and DHs have classically been somewhere in the ballpark of mortal enemies, so postulating that some faction of DHs was willing to learn their techniques, and some faction of Wardens was willing to teach them rather than throwing them in jail to rot, is reeeeeally hard to sustain.

On the other side, while a demonic caster spec makes a little more sense from the perspective of the lore background of the DH class (after all, we get like a third of our abilities by yoinking them off a demon we just murdered during the starting area), it’s a massive divergence from how DHs have been portrayed and characterized in the whole of Warcraft history. Such a caster would also require a different weapon setup. The Warden style could at least continue using glaives, either individually or in pairs (and would probably even use Agility similar to a hunter), but a caster setup would require intellect weapons and gear, meaning either they would no longer use warglaives (and then are they really a DH?), Blizzard would have to add warglaives with intellect on them (exacerbating the issue that warglaives themselves caused, since they are already a weapon only used by 1/12th of the classes), or all warglaives would have to have both agility and intellect on them, which would also be odd, though at least somewhat manageable. So ultimately, such a caster setup is also quite unlikely.

TL;DR: a third spec is quite unlikely, because there’s no real way to add it without diluting Havoc or trampling all over the established DH lore and characterization. And Blizzard said exactly that during a the lead-up to Legion, that they were only adding 2 specs because they couldn’t find a way of adding a 3rd without retconning DHs hardcore or making one of the other two specs substantially less awesome than it was.

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Even if we don’t get a 3rd (ranged) spec, the next class should be ranged regardless. Every class added has been melee. DK, both dps specs are melee. Monk, dps spec is melee. DH, dps spec is melee.

If they do add another class, it should by rights be a caster, either hybrid or straight dps, because melee outnumbers ranged by 14 to 10.5 (Disc as .5 lol).

Ideally I’d like to see a ranged fel-based spec for us, but I guess a tinker or necromancer type class would be good too.

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In regards to lore and potential third spec fitting established the WoW world:

In vanilla I played Druid, and even into BC feral was just one spec. You could spec your talent points differently and create a melee DPS themed Feral or a Tank themed Feral.

It wasn’t until Bliz decided to add a fourth spec, that it actually existed. Blizzard creates this world, and they could totally create a storyline that would explain a third spec.

Admittedly this would involve some work and that’s probably why it would require foresight and developmental time to do it correctly. But to succeed wow must grow and evolve with time, like everything in the universe.

While many of the WoW lore experts would point out the history of DH to justify its inclusion and substance, there are two obvious routes with which DH could be expanded upon.

  1. The past changes. AKA the caverns of time route and alternate reality which saw ogres (just for instance) ally with Illidan at the Black Temple. This could lead way to more races being added, and we know both Blizzard and the playerbase can benefit from adding new races.

These, ogre (again just as an example) could have focused on fel magics, which paves the way for a ranged dps caster/physical ranged damage combo class that may operate by way of casting Fel magic spells. Think rain from above, instead of above just from “afar”.

The allied race unlock could be journeying back through BC with updated mobs and quests. Maybe even some of the new ogre-magi DHs would be seen when journeying back to Black Temple during time-walking weeks, as replacement mobs with different skins only to those in the know (with the unlock).

  1. The future. The past isn’t the only route to inclusion of a third DH spec. The next major tier, expansion, or whenever could see new Demon Hunters trained to learn these new skills.

Since we have a precedent of WoW not only adding new specs to Druid, it hopefully is not off the table. The real question is would Blizzard have enough resources to devote to it, in a given amount of time. If they did, the player base would certainly enjoy it, and it may serve to reiniivograte a spark in the playerbase when it is deeply needed.

That’s not even remotely the same thing. When they split the specs, they weren’t creating new lore or capabilities or themes for the class. All they did was say that druids were now choosing to focus specifically on their cat form abilities or their bear form abilities, rather than trying to be a jack-of-all-trades between the two. Both cat and bear form druids were established in lore, and even amongst the Druids of the Claw in prior games, most druids tended to favor one of the two forms over the other (and the majority of Druids of the Claw favored bear form, iirc). So that wasn’t even really a retcon, to be honest, not on level with, say, Blizzard shifting the notion of a Survival hunter from a ranged rot class to a Rexxar-esque melee scrapper with a pet, which also had lore precedent.

Adding a caster specialization or a Warden-based specialization to demon hunters, on the other hand, would require significant additions or retcons to their established lore. That’s not something Blizzard undertakes lightly just because people are salty that there’s not a third slot on their talent window. I’m not saying it’ll never happen, but I’m saying that there’s not a lot of good reasoning behind it, there’s a LOT of lore and class characterization issues and changes required, and that ultimately it’s just not really something Blizzard is likely to feel a burning need to address, or really a need to address period.

No, the question isn’t whether they have the resources. They can make the room in their development timetables and allocations. That’s fairly easy, actually, since every expansion has included some pretty major revisions to a number of specs. The question is whether they believe it even should be done, and so far the evidence seems to point to “no” (and rightfully so, in my opinion).

It’s also rather hollow to try to claim adding a third spec to one of the 12 classes would somehow “reinvigorate” the entirety, or even the majority, of the player base. Hell, it likely wouldn’t even reinvigorate a decent chunk of the DH player base, the portion (including myself) that sees no need for a third spec, much less a ranged spec that had to be hacksawed and hammered into the lore.

The only thing that’s going to reinvigorate the player base is the dev squad getting their heads out of their backsides and starting to actually listen to their customers again. And maybe for Activision to back the hell off a bit and let Blizzard develop the way that made them the largest game company in the US and the fifth largest in the world. Unless and until that happens, adding new specs is like trying to piss on a forest fire.

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Also briefly to touch on the idea of havoc being split into two specs. It has merit but it couldn’t just be dividing the spec by two. It is already a simple spec, rotation-wise and number of abilities.

It would have to divide by two, take the thematically salient parts and expand upon them.

That is to say grow and add other abilities, talents and concepts also. Not just a Havoc / 2 type deal.

I’ve addressed this before, but the notion that Havoc’s rotation is uncommonly simple is just a meme, it has no basis in reality. Havoc, using any of the 3 currently top-end builds (Demonic, Nemesis, or Momentum), has a minimum of 5 active rotational buttons. As a result, it is on level or higher than something like 2/3rds of the DPS specs in the game in that regard. There’s only a handful of specs (6ish, iirc) with 6+ buttons in their active rotation.

Havoc’s ability set is smaller for several reasons:

  • We don’t have different single target and AoE abilities. We have the exact same rotation in single target and AoE, because nearly all of our abilities passively do AoE damage while still being useful in single-target (since Eye Beam was finally buffed to be worth using in ST).
  • Much of our utility, which is on active buttons on other classes, is passive or built in to existing abilities for DH. A good example of this is Soul Rending, compared to active abilities like Crimson Vial, Death Strike, Victory Rush, and hybrid self-heals.
  • Most of our significant rotationally-changing talents piggy-back off existing abilities. First Blood and Trail of Ruin add Blade Dance to the rotation, but don’t actually give us a new ability. Demonic piggybacks off Eye Beam, Momentum off Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat, etc. All of these simply augment existing abilities rather than add new once or replace existing ones.
  • We have an uncommonly low amount of talents that grant new abilities. Of our 15 DPS-increasing talents, only 5 add a new ability to our bars (Felblade, Immo Aura, Fel Barrage, Dark Slash, Nemesis). Compare that to Windwalker, where 7 of their 12 DPS-increasing talents add buttons to their bar, or Marksmanship, where 7 of 15 do.
  • Our modal toggle effect, Metamorphosis, automatically changes abilities rather than having separate dedicated abilities like a rogue’s stealth or a druid’s different forms.
  • Havoc has no additional “class fantasy” requiring extra buttons, like stealth, pets, hybrid heals, or forms.

Basically, DH is the only class (and Havoc the only DPS spec) designed in a post-prune world, using a post-prune ability mentality. Instead of giving us a boatload of abilities to fill up the trainer/spellbook as we leveled, they designed a kit that worked well at max level and simply used that.

Other specs have, over the last couple expansions, started to gain similar design patterns to Havoc. For example, cat form abilities now automatically gain additional effects when used from Prowl. The new MM has only 1 dedicated AoE button not used in single target (Multi-Shot), and then uses 3 of its single-target abilities (Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, and Steady Shot for generation) in its AoE rotation. Warlock self-healing is largely passive now via Soul Leech, and for Demonology Soul Link.

But Havoc still remains the only spec designed into this post-prune world. Our ability set is compact and tightly focused, having been designed to be a minimalist complete kit from square 1 rather than being hacked into that concept, as the other specs are.

So trying to split up Havoc wouldn’t be easy. In order to differentiate the specs, you’d need them to largely have different ability sets, which means either making entirely new abilities for the new spec (which would be the case anyway if it were a ranged spec), or stealing some of the abilities from Havoc and then trying to figure out how to fill in that hole in their rotation and utility set. And I’ll be honest, I don’t have confidence that the current dev team can accomplish either of those without mortally wounding Havoc.

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I still think ranged could work and I would point there is precedence for it. Illidan’s meta form in wc3 specifically changed him into a ranged fighter, so it wouldn’t be so hard to stretch giving DH a ranged spec to work with. Additionally on the note of warden-esque spec, just call it Stockholm syndrome and voila it works.

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If only there was some way to change the abilities available to each spec within a given class.

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We had a ranged DH prior to Legion. It was called a Demo lock.

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Maso, good to see you around these parts, I remember you from beta on the MM stuff.

And ya, that’s partially my concern. A caster ranged spec for DH risks becoming old Demo pretty easily. In fact, that’s largely what the Cata iteration of Demo was, tbh, a ranged DH. I have a feeling the warlocks might mutiny en masse if they gave DH Cata-era Demo as a spec.

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You can still find me jousting that windmill on occasion.

I finally succumbed to the inevitable and began playing a DH last week. You might see me on these boards occasionally, though perhaps not. It’s rather a fun class (both specs) which means I have reduced motivation to complain. :grinning:

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Hehe, despite my love of DH, I’ve actually swapped to lock for the new raid, because our raid group had something like 8 melee and 0 locks.

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