Is there a serious reason why a 5 soul shard spirit bomb doesn’t apply 5 frailty stacks?
Or at least 2-3 stacks??
I really don’t see any reason why I should be doing a Goku charging up a spirit bomb for 5 seasons just for it to do 1 frailty and no extra healing, no extra threat.
Also while I’ve mentioned threat… Why does spirit bomb not do extra threat when paladin’s have spastically high threat with their spin to win hammers - of which require no prior build up to use just instant AoE with high damage and threat.
It really seems to me like there should be an extra gain to be had if you can wait off and build up to 5 soul shards before consuming with a bomb instead of having to just spam bomb incessantly - If that reward is not applying 5 frailty then at least make it heal/damage more exponentially for the more shards you can build up.
So to summarize…
Overarching Problem: DH Tanks are real squishy and have a fairly heavy reliance on frailty to stand toe to toe in high keys and yet we have no way to quickly apply a handful of frailty between packs.
Specific Skill Problem: Spirit Bomb is kinda weak AF - it costs more fury then soul cleave, heals less, generates standard threat and has a low range.
On top of all that if you need frailty stacks up quick and you have a few soul shards up already you can’t use spirit bomb otherwise it eats all your soul shards which massively slows down your frailty stacking compared to spamming soul cleave.
Possible fixes: Just let spirit bomb apply 1 frailty for each soul shard it consumes. (Also would be nice if soul cleave had the same logic but that could be too greedy)
Alternatively if you won’t touch spirit bomb then make sigil of flame apply frailty per tick or immolation apply frailty per tick - hell even a new talent/spell like a frailty sigil that does no damage (maybe it could do a 30-40% AoE slow as well?) on a 20-30sec cooldown that can apply frailty in bulk between each pull.
Anything like the above would really help turn the class around.
Alright with all that said blizzard you’ve got 48 hours to implement something before I start writing angry letters.
it doesnt take to long to get 4-5 souls for spb at all?
spb gives alot of threat, saving souls from past pull for new pull then immo to another spb generates alot of damage and threat
spb with demise does alot of damage and thus healing from fraility/leech
spb does alot of healing cause it consumed up to 5 souls and heals from damage done due to leech and fraility
as much as i like the idea of it causing a stack of fraility with each soul consumed, that would make fraility way to strong of a mechanic and thus it’ll probably be nerfed. imagine being able to get to max fraility stacks on everything around you with two spiritbombs.
if anything a better fix is addressing the elephant in the room. remove debuff drs and just make fb and frailty be a buff on the tank
Having a buff on the tank would be a solution as well yeah if we can’t get something to rapidly stack frail.
Either that or just change frailty so it doesn’t use stacks just make it a debuff that is single stack only that does a balanced amount of self heal + damage reduction 15% 20% 30% whatever.
The glaring issue is the fact it takes time to build so between pulls it’s just an awful mechanic and there are also some bosses that are very hard to keep stacks e.g second boss of underrot with how much it moves around if you’re not on your toes and using jumps to keep up (which means you can’t also grub squish) to avoid losing stacks on a high key then you can get flattened real quick in a couple hits.
I really don’t see an issue with spirit bomb applying 1 frailty per soul shard though.
Like if you’re stacking frailty in groups you’re using bomb on 1 soul shard anyways which is 1:1 ratio so whats the deal with having 5 frailty stacks apply with 5 shards that’s still a 1:1 ratio.
All that means is maybe on the initial pull if a DH lets 5 shards build up at the end of each pack then there is potential to have a momentarily overly high amount of frailty but like DH kinda squishy anyways so I don’t see that as being imbalanced.
Posts structured like this are obnoxious. If you aren’t going to actually listen to the man’s arguments and respond then don’t waste our time with a wall of text.
Spirit Bomb needs to apply more frailty stacks than it does. That’s a pretty basic request and is extremely reasonable.
vdh needs alot of things, but spb granting more fraility stacks isnt one of them. maybe 2 fraility stacks per cast but thats it. consider the idea of procing 5 stacks of fraility with one cast of spb on every target around you, you cap out at 2 spb which is alot of extra damage, mitigation, and healing for 0 effort on a 100% uptime.
this will lead to a nerf. the “wall of text” was basically a summary of that and multiple reason why spb is strong button and the things vdh dont have issues with. replies that dont agree with what you personally want isnt a “waste of time”
Yeah but you still need the soul shards up to pop that off.
You can’t just roll into a fresh fight and insta 5 frailty even if it did apply 5 stacks with 5 shards.
It’s more for the purpose of easing up the huge burst damage that comes in on fresh pulls on high keys where the premise would be you would have to be mindful to save shards towards the end of each pack so you’ve got 5 on the ground when you go to the next pack.
That said I do see your argument though which is like this summed up:
Currently for 5 frailty (with no season 1 tier set bonus and assuming 0% haste and assuming no other shards from other procs) means you have to do 1 fracture/shear + 1 spb per frailty.
So that’s 10x1.5s = 15s for 5 stacks
VS if spb did 1 frail per shard which would be 5 shears/fracture + 1 spb
Which is 6x1.5s = 9s for 5 stacks.
It is a fairly big increase to speed of frailty stacking when looking at it like that.
However if that increase really would be too whack I really like my idea of the frailty sigil that does a mild/medium slow and applies N amount of frailty on medium ish 20-30s cooldown.
This would allow you to pop up frailty if you fall into some trouble e.g you aggro an extra mob by accident or you know a particular pack hits really hard.
Or like you said just give us a buff that we can keep up on ourselves instead of a debuff we have to keep stacked on every enemy.
I wish they would change our 8 min cd cheat death to be like pallys gift of the golden valykrie which makes guardian of the ancient kings pop as a pseudo cheat death. I wish meta cheat worked like this or even demonic. I find I blow my cheat death more often on a wipe, so having a short CD oops like theirs would be great.
Not to diminish your point of frailty, you’re right. We are vulnerable at the start of packs or if frailty falls off and cds are down. This happens with a pally too. They have gaps in mitigation or can have them without proper planning but their cheat death is helpful. Ours kinda sucks.
I’m not saying I have threat issues as a whole I’m saying compared to other tanks aoes the threat on spb is real low.
It is really stupid that our 8min cheat death gets popped on wipes when its such a long cooldown seriously why does it not reset on death?
Much like golden valk on pallies don’t forget DK cheat death is only 3min as well so not sure why ours is 8min…
Apply cheat: It lasts 15 seconds. If you die when the buff it up it procs the cheat and sets the CD to 8 minutes. If the 15 seconds expires without the cheat proccing then you can re-cast it 30 seconds later. If you die without the cheat up then nothing gets procced and you don’t waste it.
I’d be good with this. I hate there’s no reduction either. Maybe fel dev or soul frag consumption reducing the CD. Pallys got it pretty good. Mine is ilevel 425 now and so many ways to mitigate. They definitely can drop fast though on new pulls when low on CDs. My DH is still pretty tanky but man so many dead talents all over the tree.
Spikes offers hardly any mitigation that is really impactful enough to prevent incoming burst on fresh pulls - it’s just something you try and keep up as much as possible to ease overall incoming across a fights duration.
Meta is a 3min cooldown and really should be a break glass in case of emergency ability.
Fel dev if specc’d into is 40s which is too long to be up for each pull provided your dps aren’t slacking off.
Don’t come here posting on a pally with such weak arguments.
A valid comment would be to say spec into DIF which the tier set is forcing on us anyways so brand can be used on rotation between fel dev so there is something always up for pulls.
This is my opinion only but I think having to rely on a long 40s-60s cooldown being available every pull is not fun to deal with in terms of gameplay and ultimately means we have no real defensive available for emergencies outside running away and kiting with infernal strikes.
that is true, spikes is very weak when it comes to fresh pulls, but this is why you have brand and fel dev to supliment the start of your pull. or even pull the first big pack big around your meta. even using soul cleave to stack on fraility on 5targets around you
this line of thinking will only lead to meta never being pressed. the amount of pulls meta can smooth over and the amount of situations that could have been prevented with meta being used on cd is staggering. thinking that “emergancy buttons” exist is just overal killing your own bulk and making your healers work on you more instead of working on the group as a whole.
this is why you space out yoru defensives. if fel dev is on cd, then you brand and spikes. if brand is on cd your fel dev and spikes. again focusing on soul cleave fury dumping can net you about 6-8 stacks of fraility on your main target and targets around you. not to mention painbringer stacks.
you are literally posting on a hunter.
both dif and ftd build are both viable with the tier set. even tho the tier heavily favors dif build. its still a solid idea to use ftd and lr build as a way to get familiar with mob timers, rotational quirks, and pathing in m+
keep in mind despite being defensively and offensively stronger, dif requires intense focus on your mob timers and excellent rotational execution. it punishes mistakes heavily even with tier 4pc.
vdh is a tank that puts heavily empathies on your rotation for your survival, dif only hammers this concept in deeper. if fel dev, your two brands, meta are all on cd. (which shouldnt) then you always have spikes, painbringer and frailty to rely on until something goes off cd. vdh doesnt have to kite in any situation, it kites as much as ppally or prot warrior. it was just bolstering fort last week which has plenty of mobs where you just run the away from on any tank (vortex p, wind 300% attavck speed mobs)
Emergency buttons have been apart of the game since forever - you are posting on a class that has the most iconic emergency buttons out of any class and you’re hear arguing against emergency buttons on other classes.
Brand is only going to save you in pack pulls if you’re down that side of the tree.
Which has been a big issue with this class with the new trees - one side of both trees is absolute hot garbage.
Furthermore on that topic tier sets that force you into one lane is complete rubbish design - that goes for any and all classes not just DH.
Make tier sets more general enhancement not specific skill enhancement unless it only targets class base skills and doesn’t require specific speccing to min/max.
Bring in legendaries that are more specific ability enhancements which have multiple options to choose from like in Shadowlands.
Don’t try and shoehorn us into specific specs like the current tier sets are doing.
Which I clearly don’t play anymore but he has a groovy profile picture and I like it like that so it stays.
Yeah that’s just downright incorrect.
Pally and war have way superior mitigation/damage reduction.
i feel like i have this cconvo every day regarding meta usage. for vdh your “emergancy buton” is last resort. for bdk its purg, everything else has to be used consiatntly and pulled around to provide the safest and most strongest pulls for yoru team and healer. meta has a 3min cd, it shouldnt be used once per dungeon. the longer you prolong it, the more needless pressure you put on your healer and group the “emergancy” never comes and meta remains unpressed for the entire encounter and dungeon
shadowlands did this too, you were always shoehorned into specific builds to different types of content with talent rows. idk why anyone thought talent trees would be better. you know brand is also good with the ftd and lr build too right? its not just the dif build that makes brand usable. this is starting to sound like a in general class design problem thread than a vdh thread.
then why are you complaining about me posting on a paladin? maybe i like my paladins profile pic
pally and warrior has stronger buttons yes, but vdh doesnt have to kite more than they do. this is 100% looking like a case of you not pressing your buttons. dont get me wrong, your suggestions are fine and would be nice. but i know alot of them would just result in fraility and other things being nerfed to compensate the higher uptime of more stacks.
im giving your solutions are your not taking a single one of them. i encourage you to log your run, post your log in the felhammer discord veng channel and improve. if you dont want to listen to my advice and put a million excuses or even log yourself and compare it to other vdhs (even tho alot of the higher io vdh are inting themselfs…i feel like this will be a solid solution to your issue still). then idk what to tell you.
this is inaccurate, you can run pain bringer by giving up a points in darkglare boon and soul furance
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you can also go even more bulky with extended spikes and pain bringer
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i encourage you to go to felhammer or wowhead/icy veins for more defensive oriented builds. because there is no build where you give up soul carver or decree/fodder