Can this class, both Havoc & Vengeance please have a base spamable slow. Doing M+ as a tank without a reliable slow with necrotic is extremely hard, using Sigil of Chains works, however the cooldown is too long and using Razor Spikes seems kinda redundant when trying to kite necrotic.
Why was this class released without a slow? It seems like the devs just threw this class together since Legion without forethought.
My suggestion is to give both specs Master of the Glaive baseline and replace that talent with Bloodlet in the Havoc tree.
What do you guys think? Would this change break the game? Or would it make us more viable?
I was actually wondering about this, admittedly being a newer DH, but found it odd that weāre a melee class without a baseline snare.
Personally, I think it would be a simple fix: just āsplitā the Havoc talent; Master of the Glaive, so that glaive-throw always slows the target for both specs, and for the talent spot have it add a second charge and maybe root the target for a certain amount of time instead.
(giving us full talents is usually a bad idea as far as balancing)
Still, itās no secret that a melee class without a baseline snare is very odd.
2 Likes
Havoc does have a baseline snare. Vengeful retreat is a 70% slow for 3 seconds or so. Master of the Glaive would still be nice though.
Now vengeance doesnāt have any baseline slow. You either get razer spikes which is only effective when you have DS up and donāt need to kite (why does it even need this restriction?). Chains is a good ability, but a 1.5 min Cd on a slow is far too much. Veng can cover a lot of distance with leaps to justify its lack of a slow, but what happens in small areas where that is useless?
Vengeful Retreat is pitiful, we need a base spamable snare/slow.
2 Likes
I would say it is more critical that veng gets a slow rather than havoc if I had to choose (rather both get them, but we know blizzās stance on giving back abilities)
They specifically declined to add one during initial development during Legion beta, mostly for thematic reasons. DHs use superior mobility to keep up with their targets, rather than snaring them. Between Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat, and Felblade, we have substantially more access to gap closers than basically any other melee out there, with the possible exception of rogues (especially sub).
Now, I canāt really comment on the impact that has on us in PvP, as I really donāt ever PvP, but that was the design intent, at least (iirc, they made a post to that effect during the Legion beta). However, given the fact that the ānerf DHs in PvPā threads have only started tapering off in the last month or two, I suspect we arenāt exactly hurting for that lack.
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Theyād have to balance that into PvP where Demon Hunters already are mobility kings.
replace bfa talents with legion talents BAM CLASS MAKES SENSE AGAINā¦
3 Likes
Compared to maybe a Paladin, however the king of mobility would easily go to Wind Walker Monks with Roll/Chi Torpedo(better version of Fel Rush) and Flying Serpent Kick, oh and also they have a Sprint(70% movement speed) with a baked in Freedom (Tigerās Lust) - And they have a spamable snare/slow(root).
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Legionās talent tree was really lopsided, but regardless, has nothing to do with the topic, which only concerns one talent row that is among the best balanced.
the legion talent tree didnt make you pick between snare or stun stun was in a good place in the talent tree ā¦ it didnt make you pick between things that should be baseline and other things that should be baseline.
the talent choices in legion where a little more fairā¦
The DHās mobility kit is really strong, which offsets the lack of a slow. Giving havoc a baseline slow would make them overpowered in arena - healers who already have a rough time keeping havoc DHs off them would never catch a break. Having to decide between taking a slow or the single target stun that permits Mana Rifts and better control is an interesting choice. The game is way too short on interesting choices at the moment as-is.
Re. Tanking: Protection Paladins also have to talent into an AoE slow, giving up part of among the best off-heal build in the game right now, and have markedly less mobility. It isnāt just a VDH problem.
Slows arenāt vital though, even during necrotic weeks, and more to the point, this is what having a team is for.
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The stun was in a terrible place, competing with two big DPS increase talents that defined how the spec was played. If you were only focused on pvp, maybe it was a no brainer - Nemesis had a ludicrously short duration in PvP - but the class has to function for all aspects of gameplay.
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Base, spammable slows, are very powerful, and often require a sacrifice of damage/mobility to pull off.
exactly what im saying and in pve you dont need a stun so the dps boost is also a no brainer.
you could have blind fury and demonic appetite at the same time which was a great feeling for demon hunter , you could also have 2 charges of throw glaive, and bloodlet at the same time legion talents might not have been perfect but they sure as hell where better than bfa talent choicesā¦
and if we are talking pvp they should have a baseline slow attached to throw glaive every other melee has one and it makes no sense for them to not have one.
if they did maybe they could be played with something other than dk and work in arena.
Demonic Appetite needs to be taken out back and shot. Repeatedly. I for one do not want to see a re-rise of the playstyle where I have to stand stock-still to avoid losing DPS by consuming souls early and overcapping, especially in a world of bosses more complex than a target dummy. Was never a good feeling to have 3-4 souls on the ground and still be at 80-100 fury due to CS refunds and then get knocked back or be forced to move for something and simply watch half of that fury vanish into thin air due to overcapping. It was and is a dumb and clunky mechanic. Resources should not be proximity-consume world objects. VDH has issues with that, too.
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that is a good point huge issue with vengance aswell.
might be why they seperated them eye beam for pve DA for pvp in the same row of talentsā¦
for pvp its fine but for pve its absolute garbage/ā¦
Thatās nonsense though. We werenāt overpowered in 7.3 arena when you could get master of the glaive and fel eruption in the same build.
To me this choice is not interesting.
I had a toolkit, now tools are taken away and I canāt access the full kit any more.
Itās like saying you canāt get a wrench and a screwdriver at the same time anymore so now you have to loosen / tighten bolts and nuts with a wrench and a butter knifeā¦ or with a screwdriver and your fingertips. Isnāt this decision interesting?
Thatās not interesting.
This brings up a good point.
Make Blind Fury baseline, put Master of the Glaive in the same row as Felblade. That way you canāt get snares if you pick the highest mobility talent we have.
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Everyone lost tools, though. You can debate the merits, but it isnāt just havoc that lost out.
Regardless, havoc at no point has had a baseline snare. Other specs lack different components as well. No one gets to have it all except for rogues.