DF Talents: Initial Thoughts class + outlaw

Took some time after the new trees were posted to look them over, and I have some initial thoughts that are more than just, “Why sepsis?” :slight_smile: I’ll start with the class tree + outlaw since that’s my primary spec now.

==Class Tree==
Overall, I’m happy with the choices in the class tree, and I could see myself using many of the early options in different builds for solo, pvp, and pve play both leveling and end game. A couple things stand out as strange, though, particularly the requirement in some cases to take a talent that primarily benefits PVP to get to a PVE option, as well as stuffing one of our most useful dynamics as a pure dps class further down in the tree than it probably needs. As the tree is built currently, I have enough reasons to ignore the final row completely, which is something I haven’t seen in other trees as of yet. If the goal is to encourage at least 1 final row talent, I feel this misses that mark in a general sense because getting to at least 1 of those talents requires points in “dead” talents at higher levels.

Problem: Acrobatic Strikes is a great tool that allows rogues to stand at the end of some melee mechanics without losing a lot of DPS. This is a major aspect that up to now has been relatively unique to rogues (their lowish-level range increase talent). It gives us something that other melee classes have a harder time achieving, and as a purely dps class, there’s good reason to keep it at the earlier levels to compete with classes that have other toolkits (healing/tank) available to them.

Suggestion: Swap acrobatic strikes with the IMproved sprint [nnf] and add connections from Nimble Fingers and Rushed setup. This allows it to be a relatively accessible talent while still requiring some effort to reach (putting it with no connections I assume means it could just be chosen at any point as soon as it’s available). It’s a talent a lot of rogues like myself would gladly spend a point or two dipped elsewhere to reach, but the talents to get there now aren’t enticing enough unless you’re running a more solo-oriented build, which wouldn’t benefit from it as much anyway.

Problem: Leeching Poison as it is with the current “new” talents requires outlaw and subtlety rogues to use what is essentially a pvp-specific poison to benefit from it, but the following talents (seal fate and thistle tea) are very good and could be useful in PVE builds that don’t utilize shadow step (which itself is rare in PVE) or resounding clarity.

Suggestion: Either it needs to work with instant poison, or it needs to be swapped/revamped to not be so heavily tied to pvp via wound poison (assuming that poison doesn’t change its existing functionality, few pve mobs heal in a meaningful way). If you move it to master poisoner’s position and put MP after it (where the improved wound poison is now), it would encourage a pvp build of any spec to drop a few points there for the added leech + the 20% effect. That frees up LP’s current place and you could design something into thistle tea that fits both pvp/pve better.
An alternate, likely less popular option would be to swap the talents in that row around so that LP ends up above Find Weakness and Shadow dance. While shadow dance has its uses in PVE situations, it shines in PVP where the targets don’t instantly turn as you’re fighting them. Again, though, this has the same problem of putting what is basically a dead talent in PVE (for anybody other than assassination) as a requirement to something you could otherwise use with the right knowledge.

I benched my rogue this expansion because of the reliance on (and my continued inability to) getting good procs with roll the bones. Just looking at the tree as it sits now makes me incredibly interested in trying it out again come Dragonflight. That’s wonderful, and I hope this aspect at least stays so I can tinker with it in beta. I also really like the feeling of original “combat” being more left-tree and “pirate outlaw” being more right-tree with RTB being an option for either. I can really see myself building into any of these and it’s awesome.

Note: Placing Dirty Tricks where it is after hit and run is perfect because it’s a reasonably situational option for PVP and solo play and doesn’t step on PVE/end game options’ toes. This is the kind of placement I was suggesting in the class tree for Leeching poison.

Problem/suggestion: The wording of blade flurry currently implies that it’s an “oops” button as soon as you don’t have multiple targets. Would really prefer if it still said “additional targets” for the reduced damage. Also, this would make “long arm of the outlaw” function like a cooldown version of acrobatic strikes because you could pop blade flurry and move to the edge of a melee ability to still deal damage. It would solve the problem mentioned above with acrobatic strikes being so far down the class tree. I would be okay with that. It would also mean Precise cuts isn’t just fixing your lowered damage, but actually functioning as a buff, which I would hope was the intention (otherwise it’s so far down as to feel penalizing).

Potential Problem: Heavy Hitter sounds like you have to spend exactly 1 combo point to benefit from it. Is it possible to build in such a way that you can get 1 combo point exactly reliably? Just based on what exists in the class and spec trees now, it feels like you’re going to end up many times with 2 combo points unless you’re very specific in how you play. Maybe that’s the goal, but it seems at least at first glance to be a lot harder than one might think. It also precludes ever taking deeper stratagem since you’re definitely building around it to get the 7-point effect.

Potential Problem: Deeper Stratagem exists in both this tree and the class tree. Can you pick both, gaining a total of 7 combo points? Or does having one lock out the other?

For anybody still reading, I put this basic idea of a spec tree together that I could see myself using in end game. https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTORVFRBUBSoBQ3BEAACQPVUUEEBARURYkFiRA

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Alright, I’m back after looking over the new format on the trees. I absolutely love the new order of things. Nothing feels like a dead talent, and there were a few places where I really had to think on what I chose (and will likely switch for some fights).

No complaints here, now I just need to get into the beta once it rolls around so I can test out some builds. :slight_smile:

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I’m just a little burned up about how they made Killing Spree and Dreadblades a single choice node now.

I was looking forward to running both.

Also, not thrilled that we don’t have Flagellation.

I’ll withhold too much criticism until I see how Ambush spam build plays out.


I’ll admit, when I wrote that it was only after looking at the changes and not building into the tree in the first place.

  • I’m okay with KS vs DB, though I do like them together. Without flagellation, it makes it an easier choice for me to keep KS standard and go DB only in scenarios where I can take advantage of the up time.

  • I’m not a fan of the purported “shadow dance” build, and I hope it doesn’t become the standard in general. I have no plans to use it myself, that’s why I don’t play shadow. Seeing it in the generic tree is fine, but I really don’t want it to become optimal play to use it.

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