DF Monk Class Talent Tree Ideas (Interactive)

Classes Monk
1

I’ve made various posts and threads throughout the WoW forums with my feedback on the Monk talent trees, but It’s really hard to present meaningful feedback without using “Touch of Death” on the reader via a giant wall of text.

So, I put together my own interactive talent calculator and modified the talents to showcase the various ideas myself (and others) have presented:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/xc4v6p/i_really_appreciate_the_feedback_i_got_last_time/

Any feedback, questions, suggestions, and comments are welcome.

  • Updated Sept 6:
    • Adjusted Tiger Tail Sweep, Ferocity of Xuen, and Black Sun Kick talents
  • Updated Sept 8:
    • Added “Disciple of Yin” and “Disciple of Yang” talents to base talent tree for a more thematic flavor to simple talents which do a base increase to stats.
    • Added Mistweaver talent tree. Most all of the original talents should still be there in some form, though some have been modified and a bunch of the positions have been switched around. Several new talents are there as well.
  • Updated Sept 12:
    • Redid both the class and mistweaver talent trees based on feedback.
    • Fixed some bugs and added some polish.
    • Added comments to explain reasoning for choices/changes.
    • Added section to clarify base abilities (what’s granted outside of talent choices)
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2

Pretty awesome!

Love to see other software developers in the community :-).

3

Aye, it’s been funner to work on than playing the game at the moment, and I couldn’t think of a better way to provide feedback than this.

I might add some notes somewhere to explain my reasoning for the changes though…

4

Erel, I said it before bud, your ideas are solid as!

As I said in our previous post I would change zen steps “jump” to be a reverse gravity mechanic that last for up to 2 seconds which would serve as a fall reset but also could allow us to do a mega jump which would be fun!

This tree is way more exciting and interesting than the current and I find myself wanting everything whereas the other tree has me not caring for at least half of what is available. A special shout out to how you have made every talent something that benefits every spec in some way while still lending more to specific specializations, as opposed to some talents being completely irrelevant.

Hope the Devs see this and bring their build in line with this.

5

I tried pretty hard to maintain the general feel of the existing tree while tweaking options here and there for what just “felt right”.

This was a major goal I had when considering what each talent needed to do in the generic class tree. If the talent didn’t feel useful for every spec (such as “Agitate” (improved provoke)), then I’d slap it onto a choice node and allow the alternate choice to be useful in some way (such as “Hidden Presence”).

Making everything desirable does a lot better job at introducing choice tension than putting undesirable stuff in the way of desirable stuff does. Every theoretical build I’ve tried in the example tree I’ve built forces me to choose between something I really want and something else I really want.

I’ll consider making adjustments to the Zen Steps talent. I’m not sure how a reverse gravity mechanic would feel when played in-game (BG’s as a melee vs. monks could be a bit of a nightmare), but I could possibly see tweaking to just double or triple the normal jump height and make it effectively only outside of combat.

I also want to tweak Tiger Tail Sweep and Ferocity of Xuen. They’re both 2-point nodes which cause a lot of tension moving through the middle of the tree, and a flat damage boost is fairly boring compared to a lot of other talents which are available.

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Cool setup, but… You are taking away a ton of choices this will feel bad. Cool all the work dont get me wrong but… take tigers lust as example for tanks takes so much to get it where as current tree doesnt take much

Also Instant vivify for tanks is really good so many points to pick this. You give celerity but no chi torpedo. And 2 points… Disable nobody ever going to take disable ever maybe pvp but not pve which is 90% the game

OK well i see chi topedo but why with Chi burst that is bad really bad

I mean just to get everything i can get now on the current tree is 35 points we only have 30 to use.

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What my talent tree doesn’t show yet is that you get one talent point applied for free based on your chosen spec (I aim to update this in the future). They’d be:

  • Brewmaster - Expel Harm
  • Mistweaver - Vivify
  • Windwalker - Rising Sun Kick

Class talent trees also have 31 total points to spend in comparison to a spec tree’s 30 points.

I’ve also recently updated the tree to have less congestion in the middle (less 2-point nodes blocking progress + an extra path) which should help out a lot when traversing the tree.

In Blizzard’s tree for a Brewmaster, it currently takes 4 talent points to acquire an instant cast vivify (Soothing Mist or Calming Presence → Vivify (2 ranks) → Vivacious Vivification). Windwalker would take 4 as well, and Mistweaver would take 3 at minimum.

In my tree, it takes 3 talent points for a Brewmaster (Vivify → Calming Presence → Vivacious Vivification), 3 for Windwalker, and 2 for Mistweaver. The 40% increase to Vivify is instead baked in to Vivify itself, and Calming Presence also grants a 3% healing received buff.

All in all, this particular interaction is better than what’s currently seen on Blizzard’s tree.

Blizzard’s current talent tree has a single talent which does nothing more than provide an extra charge to Roll (or Chi Torpedo) which can only be accessed after selecting Soothing Mist. This isn’t a great interaction, and it’s effectively a lesser form of another talent on the tree: Celerity.

The solution I came up with is to effectively combine this lesser talent into Celerity (removing Celerity off of its choice node), make it a 2-point node, and move it toward the center of the tree (since the likely-hood of every spec wanting it is pretty high).

This left Chi Torpedo by itself, and I could have left it that way, but I saw another interaction on the tree that needed improvement:

  • Very few monks would pick Chi Wave over Chi Burst
  • Chi Wave felt like it’d be better placed on a choice node competing with Eye of the Tiger

So, I decided to move Chi Wave onto a choice node competing with Eye of the Tiger, and improved both talents… then took Chi Burst and Chi Torpedo and combined them into a single choice node. However, the new setup DOES make it impossible to pick up both Chi Burst and Chi Torpedo… so I’ll likely move Chi Torpedo into a choice node with Zen Steps (since their purposes are similar) in a future update.

Disable, Spear Hand Strike, and Paralysis are kind of in odd spots in the Blizzard talent tree. They’re all shoved onto the right side (tanking side?) of the talent tree. I tried to make more sense of this setup in the rebuild I did, but I’m still not incredibly happy with it. I thought about moving Disable into Paralysis’s current spot on my tree, but then that’d detach Disable from the immediate path of Windwalker monks coming from Rising Sun Kick. I’ll keep fiddling with this area of the tree to see if I can make further improvements.

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8

I had the same experience using your build.

I guess it would affect it but iIcant imagine it would be more disruptive than DHs with double jump, glide, dash or evokers with glide.

Also, the adaptation to Eye of the Tiger is way better and it would make taking the TP talents in the WW tree more relevant.

Which choices do you prefer on the live tree that you miss out on in this one?

What about keeping disable with its root effect intact and instead having the Pressure Points talent in addition to reducing the cool down of Para it also increases the range of disable, adds a cost to it and makes it effect multiple targets. This might make it worth taking in more than just PvP. The other option would be to add a damage reduction affect to the targets you have applied a CC on, perhaps 5% for 5 seconds.

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Some of these changes are absolutely amazing, how can this be more coherent then a billion dollar company can achieve.

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A higher jump or double jump for a monk would certainly be cool, I’m just not sure how willing Blizzard would be to mix class features that much (I imagine that they’d want double-jump to be a uniquely Demon Hunter thing, otherwise Monks and Rogues would certainly qualify for it).

I’ve thought about making a choice node for Disable where the alternate choice adds a 2 second slowing effect to Spinning Crane Kick, but I wasn’t certain how good of an idea that would be or how much more it might diminish Disable’s desirability.

I’m glad you like them. I’m curious as to which changes/suggestions you like the best and why.

As an interim update, I’m about half-way through my first crack at the Mistweaver talent tree. I was drawing a blank on ideas at first, but it’s actually shaping up to be pretty cool.

11

True. They are about to give the Evoker a glide which is a DH thing so maybe they would consider it. Anyways, I wouldn’t mind stealing some stuff back from a DH :rofl:

  • Chi Torpedo>Fel rush (CT used to do damage when it passed through enemies)
  • FoF>Eye Beam
  • FSK>Vengeful Retreat
  • Para>Imprison
  • Leg sweep>Chaos Nova
  • Afterlife>shattered souls
    the list goes on…

btw, I like the “Celestial Guidance” talent and how it maintains class fantasy with the celestials.

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The top left of the tree is infinitely better, current implementation is just silly.

I’ve always though keefers for MW could completely change up the feel of the spec.
While your there, in the MW tree make TFT cause RSK to increase its damage by x% and send the monk flying backwards 10 ft.
This way you become a more midrange healer, shooting into melee during downtime and flying back out (which puts you in a safer space) to start pumping out some healing.

Could we just remove the RSK damage talent and just make this baseline. Talent makes no sense for BM who wouldnt take RSK, and its just a mandatory talent for anyone taking RSK.

I feel I am with the other guy here when it comes to chi torp/chi burst. i would never take chi burst over torp. it would have to have ridiculous numbers. but i mean even in the current tree, I wouldn’t even take it for a point, so I might be biased.
Same goes for chi wave/eott, I just feel like these 2 abilities just need to be removed (chi burst/chi wave, they were talking about button bloat and these never came up apparently?)

I like the endcaps, much better feel then beta. I believe that mystic touch is baseline though so need to add that.

Already too long, but overall I love it, at least in compared with beta.

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TLDR, new build is up, included Mistweaver talent tree

I did too, initially, particularly since there were 4 tertiary stats to “match up” to the four Celestials. In the most recent build though, I ended up going with a Yin/Yang alternative though to replace “Ferocity of Xuen” (2 points for a 4% increase in damage was boring and costly).

This makes a lot of sense. The increase provided in the current iteration (Blizzard’s and mine) certainly make it a required talent to pick up… which doesn’t feel good. I’ll consider what the next iteration of this might look like.

This is a really neat idea, wish I had seen this just prior to publishing the latest changes. If you see a spot (or a talent an idea like this could replace) in the Mistweaver talent tree, please let me know! Meanwhile, I’ll be using my noodle to think of a way to fit something like this in…

Chi Torpedo was moved onto a choice node with Zen Steps in the latest build, allowing monks to pick up both Chi Torpedo and Chi Burst if desired.

There’s a bunch of abilities that Blizzard grants baseline to the various classes and specs beyond level 9, which I think is ultimately the result of short-sightedness when it comes to incorporating “key” abilities into an optional talent system. One of the things I tried to do with what I’m suggesting in these talent trees is to more thoroughly cleanse the abilities post level 9 or 10.

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TOTM should not be behind EF, EF should be in the caster side of the build. In your iteration of ATOTM, I wouldn’t even bother taking this talent if i could avoid it (current beta too, but forced to take there.)

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I could probably shift those three abilities like so:

  • Teachings of the Monastery → Essence Font’s position
  • Spirit of the Crane → Teachings of the Monastery’s position
  • Essence Font → Spirit of the Crane’s position

That feels like it’d be a lot cleaner. I had originally positioned it in front of TotM thinking that Mistweavers typically wouldn’t pick up Ancient Teachings of the Monastery without also picking up TotM and Essence Font as well (since Essence Font is a reliable trigger for AtotM).

I’d love to get away from a using a hard-cast (even if it’s doable while moving) heal as a trigger for AtotM altogether. I’m open to ideas.

16

Paralaysis is too long of a CD. You have it 1 minute. Its 45 seconds and reduced to 30 seconds. Nevermind you dont show the CDs so presumeably same interaction

Detox feels weird on the quote healing side though i suppose only 2 points and everyone will get that for vivify anyways. But blizz made changes to their tree so you dont need soothing mists to get vivify or insta vivify.

Mystic touch is baseline spell might suggest removing from that tree same with Zen flight. Monks get those spells now without any point interactions

Row 8 feels heavy 8 points in that row compared to 5 with live

Celerity why not make it just 1 point node. Live only requires 1 point to reduce by 5 seconds and add 1 charge. I have feeling they would never go for 3 charges of roll they restrict it now with the live tree to where you get roll after soothing mists still caps it at 2 charges you dont get a 3rd

Fort brew yours setup is weaker than whats also live you have touch reduce it by 60 seconds where live is reduce by 2 minutes and touch isnt needed unless there is some weird interaction you have. Flat 2 minutes better than having an interaction with touch of death in my opinion. Times you might miss touch or you might save it for another pack so the CD is wasted unless you can somehow maintain 100% uptime. Raid scenarios you arent touching as often 6 min CD is rough for only a 15% DR

Still think though eye of the tiger be its own node and chi wave with chi burst. Though chi burst needs big rework for it to be as good as chi wave but that more a tank perspective, dont know how often dps use it

Drop Threat talent is kinda cool though i like.

Rest is looking nicer too. thinking bout it id love to see flying serpent kick on class tree. That would be some great movement for tank

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I hope the new build is to your liking. I changed up quite a few things based on the feedback I’ve gotten thus far. You’ll probably be happy to note that I added a 50% jump height increase to Zen Steps.

I made some adjustments in this regard that I hope should flow better.

Thank you. I just updated the trees and a lot of your feedback influenced the changes that were made.

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Man… Looks amazing… especially Spatial Enlightenment and Reign of Peace! Some amazing changes here in the class tree that I’ll go over and provide feedback on but after a quick glimpse it all looks like improvements.
There are obviously some things that are over-tuned and really strong but conceptually everything here is awesome.

Blizz if you are reading this, just use this tree please :pray:

P.S. thanks for the extra jump height! some kind of ninja jump animation would be :ok_hand:

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This mistweaver concept is hilariously overpowered, combining fistweaving playstyle with the jade serpent passives creates something very close to a full raid spread of ReM as well as near full raid hits of vivify through Essence Wind.

I wouldn’t even be using Soothing Mist either, so the entire stance system is a waste of time in order to get vivify benefits.

20

Many AoE healing abilities (amongst the other classes, and outside of major cooldowns) are target capped to only heal up to 6 allies per cast.

If the synergy between Invigorating Mists, Essence Wind, and Vivify is the most significant concern, I could see the following adjustments creating a greater sense of balance:

  • Clarify that Essence Wind’s benefits only apply to the spec they’re associated with.
  • Introduce a target cap for Invigorating Mists (6 targets).
  • Alter Essence Wind’s Jade Serpent Stance benefits to leverage Invigorating Mists instead of generating its own duplicate effort, therefore limiting it to the target cap of Invigorating Mists.

While the tree presents 2 obvious play-styles (Fistweaving vs. Mistweaving), I wanted a 3rd option to be available where the monk actively switches between each stance depending on what’s needed from moment to moment. The 3rd option would obvious require more thought and care in its talent choices, but it should rightfully outperform the other two overall due to the higher skill cap (it won’t deal as much damage as just Fistweaving or generate as much healing as just Mistweaving, but it’s effective contributions should be better than both if mechanically optimized well).

If there are obvious balancing outliers, please point them out. I’d love to hear the feedback.