titles says it all. mandatory melee kicks, rogue stacking, classes with the best M+ utility also having superior throughput…sums it all up quite nicely. We need a little more of the bring the player not the class back in the game, thanks.
Ion: we’ll make better affixes!
Player-base: sooooooooooo not the problem please fire this guy.
EDIT:
here’s some links:
I agree with a lot of what is said in the article, but playing devil’s advocate:
None of that is mandatory for most key levels the average player is doing.
You could arguably bring any spec to (most) +20 keys and still time it.
Bringing meta comps just allows for the POTENTIAL of the run going smoother and having a “safety net” of sorts. You can be low-skilled and be a meta comp and still wipe on +15s. I’m not saying a +20 with 3 enhance shamans will work out and be viable for the average pug, but I feel like a lot of that has to do with the skill of the players.
Players from Method and other top-end M+ players could easily time 20s+ (assuming they have the same proficiency as they do with their main toons), with a completely off-meta comp.
There is a bear druid from Korea timing +22s, and I could be wrong but I think they have a disc priest healer. Not only that but there is Vengeance DHs timing keys of the similar level.
TL;DR - Yes there’s a lot of problems, but a lot of it is community-driven.
Funny how none of this would be a big deal if the dungeons weren’t forcing players to race against arbitrary time limits. Which are near impossible to design and balance around the many possible group combinations you can create.
Personally I’m more of a fan of a tough long dungeon that takes an hour or so to slog through with a group thats undergeared for it. But still possible to beat with dedication and gives you the same damn reward as someone who waltzes in at full 420+ and beats it in under 15 minutes.
Because the speed runners can get multiple dungeons in per hour. They don’t need the damn dungeon itself to reward them even more.
I do most of my keys as a pug through the group finder, and in Legion I could progress into the high 3.5ks doing so. You’d be hard pressed to find a key above a 13 in lfg today that doesn’t say ‘rogue’ or ‘melee’ next to it. A 14 key is hardly cutting edge, and the melee and rogue tags are ubiquitous. The “outlier” argument doesn’t apply to his.
Why I will never step foot in one. Reward is not worth putting up with the crap that comes with running one.
If that’s your idea of fun, then more power to you. To me, being undergeared is artifical difficulty.
Marathon vs. sprint. Both completely different events in the Olympics, and most only train to become great at one of those things.
Neither is bad nor good, but the creators of the MDI format believe that watching the best groups race against eachother in medium-level keys is more entertaining than watching potential wipefests of +24s. I would actually prefer to watch them do higher keys, but they dont want to.
Right, but you do not NEED a rogue for those key levels to time keys. Like I said before, it is mainly community-driven. Bringing a rogue to every dungeon makes things easier, and people naturally will take the path of least resistance, but I’ve depleted tons of keys even though it was a super-meta group.
Gear becomes outdated so quickly in BfA that I don’t see the value in spending time in M+. If it rewarded something that wasn’t just gear, I’d consider it.
(This is coming from someone who did the challenge modes in MoP and WoD on every class, and in some cases doubles of classes)
It doesn’t matter that the community is pushing the meta BECAUSE class design muscles out half the specs in M+! That’s the point! Not having a rogue is so detrimental they are required! There’s no room for the community to say “Ahh, well this would be better but this is fine.”
You’re completely right for people pushing the highest keys. Rogues being the only person to access some form of group-wide shroud that doesn’t put potions on CD is kind of lame right now. Having to have the engineering profession to access the engi brez is lame as well.
My point is mainly that the majority of people are not doing keys to where this utility makes or breaks their run.
And yet at the same time, for the people that pug lower keys, the meta classes are STILL better and if I’m trying to push a +7 or +8, why would I invite a fury warrior over a DH if they’re a similar Rio score? Is is going to break my key if I invite the warrior? Unlikely, but there’s no benefit to invite them either.
and that’s the problem. The game is now being designed around stupid eSports, and they’re surprised that sub numbers are going down faster than Mon…er, really fast.
Given that the esport you speak of is the exact same group comps every time, seems like this isnt the case.
They’re only better because certain specs are more forgiving and allow to skip/negate certain mechanics. Classes aren’t balanced at all in terms of M+, and I’m not sure if they should be balanced around M+. Maybe a separate PvP-like set of rules could be applied to M+
Meh, I think it’s the other way around. The game is losing interest so they’re trying to generate some kind of viewing experience to stay competitive in today’s gaming environment. 30k viewers for the Western cups isn’t terrible for a game as old as WoW.
I am not pleased with M+ nor am I saying that M+ is in a good place, but people need to stop obsessing over MDI. MDI of course is going to be a place where all the teams are looking for any sort of advantage, but that doesnt mean M+ outside of MDI is impossible.
Not sure I’d use the term undergeared but I agree with the general sentiment. Give me a dungeon long enough for my group chew on and find their footing in. It’s so stressful to have performance expectations dropped on my shoulder from the moment the clock starts ticking.
It’s a subjective I suppose, but I see time limits as no less artificial.
THIS! That right there is exactly what I always say. If your argument of Mythic plus being broken involves the word MDI just slap yourself! The MDI objective is to clear it fast so there will always be a comp that does it the best period. It doesn’t mean the other classes are bad it just means there are not the best to do said objective.
To the other people who also going are complaining how " well you need rogues and WW monks to do high level keys". I say this to you “What a complete joke!” Anything under a 15+ you can take ANY classes and complete the timer heck I do it all the time. Stop blaming “The Meta” which is irrelevant until you start talking 20+ Keys
Timer is artificial for sure, yeah. My point was more that if you’re undergeared for the content, you’re just handicapped for that content and it’s not a true reflection of how difficult that content is. I cant fully agree that being one-shot by an unavoidable ability due to lack of gear is actual difficulty
Said the one range class with a melee CD interrupt…Don’t make me laugh.
If you’re ranged and you don’t come with some overt speed/skip utility you’ve having a hard time getting into +14 and higher. That’s just a fact. Consider this: if you take away Solar Beam, BR, Trees there’s no reason to take a Balance druid over a warlock on any serious key, and they’re in the top 5 for damage parsing.
Keys up to and including 15 are HARDLY hardcore keys. I think even the M+ peasants do 1 10 per week for the cache.
ranged have to deal with less mechanics tbf. affixes are a joke for ranged unless you’re a healer.
enjoy some grevious sanguine in WM while trying to stick to melee for the add you need to kick and things are dropping puddles around you.
My point is the shaman’s response is the example that proves my original point. Wind Sheer has a 12 second CD and elemental damage is pretty good. So they don’t have problems getting into key pugs. Great. Doesn’t negate the fact that ranged hunters, mages, and others are set up to fail by their class design. Doesn’t change the fact that if you give all the best utility to the classes that already have superior throughput you’re screwing over everyone else. My choice is…learn survival and maybe have a CHANCE at seeing a higher key for my interrupt or…give up my main for 14 years. Mages are in the same boat but even worse because they have NO options. Good luck if you’re a bear tank, or any healer who isn’t a druid.
If you’re pugging your keys it means you don’t have a steady group. That means you are most vulnerable not only to the crap class design and balance, but you’re also at the mercy of public perception and in this case the public isn’t wrong. The article outlines exactly why. That’s all before you even get to how poorly the dungeons are designed.
the problem is affix neutral. it’s a class design problem through and through.