What is the purpose of designing packs of mobs (SoB riptide shredders) that can randomly target the same person and instantly cast (in this case an ambush) 2 3.5 million hits on you?
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There are multiple wombo-combos in SoB that basically global a person if theyāre unlucky. Itās why it was one of the most hated dungeons.
Bc you have CC and defensives, and can see when the ability comes off cooldown.
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Do you think itās actually good design to require cooldown trackers and reduce the game to playing around those?
I understand the implications of what youāre suggesting. I use nameplate cd trackers and I rely on them to time things in probably every pull.
What Iām asking is do you think thatās the kind of gameplay that translates downward without friction. Do you think the average 700 io players is aware of the weakauras and has the mental bandwidth to monitor the cd and react properly?
Everyone blames lower keys for not teaching players, but I donāt think itās the keys, itās the things that players have to do to overcome the shortcomings of the gameās UI and a players ability to read and react to the cues offered by the mobs.
I think at the very least they need to introduce better ingame queues for these critical abilities, perhaps something as basic as a boss style increasing or decreasing energy bar could be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Ideally it would be in the form of a visual cue allows you to watch the mobs and not just nameplates.
Feels like the players get a lot of blame for the gameās shortcomings.
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OP is asking about +12s. So no, I donāt think 700 io players should need to have that mental bandwidth, and I donāt think the game is asking that of 700 io players. Hell I had to go watch a youtube to even see what riptide shredders even do thatās scary bc Iāve only done an +11 Siege lol.
I do think that, as you get higher and higher IO, you should have to do look up info on mechanics, you should have to start adjusting your UI to give you all the information you need, and have to start strategizing around ways to avoid stuff like bad luck āoneshotsā. I think that is the core challenge of high level WoW and that is basically what I like about it. Obvs thereās stuff I think is over the top and bad design or unbalanced, but in general, yeah, that is what I like.
I think itās totally valid to want abilities like that to have a more intuitive, built in ātellā for their big abilityā¦ but nevertheless, the fact is is if you do want that cooldown to be displayed as an energy bar, you can actually do that with weakauras tooā¦ I guess I think if the idea of optimizing your information display on screen and pushing yourself to play better by reacting to that information is appealing, then it does translate downwardā¦ if it doesnāt, then I still think playing WoW at a lower level lets you play just fine without all that. I dont know that everyone playing wow should feel obligated to be 3k io.
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I appreciate your perspective. I think the problem is that often the only thing that teaches players to respect an abillity is to die to it. At lower levels players will not learn that lesson and carry it forward. They will then find themselves in a position to cause a groupwide failure and that isnāt tolerated well by the community anymore.
I think esoteric mechanics are a double-whammy because they not only require a player to learn the mechanic, but also learn how to counter the lack of feedback with third party tools. I think thatās an awkward hurdle for players trying to move up the ranks and those caught in groups with them.
We can blame players for being lazy, or entitled, but they are the ones in charge of their wallets. The game can ask them to go to whatever lengths it wishes, but thereās a finite limit to their interest. I think we need to look hard and long at the cost of entry and participation in M+.
I mean, random heroic dungeons reward 140g per run. Itās like they strategically did everything though could think of to make M+ just to irritate players. 50g for timing a +15? Scrooge would probably wince at that one.
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If the shadowstep one shot had a cast time and a target that would be valid.
Itās already ape tier gameplay pressing defensives ājust in caseā on the prexisting overlaps.
The dungeon is littered with slot machine targetting with no options for counterplay.
So you die to it, learn, and try again.
Not being able to complete something on the first try is not a flaw.
Dying is fine, but when thereās no tell, or obvious solution, players are less inclined to learn. I just think the game could improve vastly in that respect.
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Yes. No matter the content, if youre tryna progress you should be doing that eventually. Maybe not for something below a 7, maybe not even for a 10, but if youre looking to go further, yes.
Gameplay isnt reduced at all. They just let you pay more attention to mechanics you should be paying attention to anyway. The reasons the trackers are used is so you can plan on how to deal with those in advance and not waste cc. Once again, not needed at a level where everythings not one shotting.
These players arent being killed by the abilities unless they ignored the last 2+ instances. The only thing that really shouldnt be necessary is using an addon to discover exactly what hit you. Blizzard doesnt have a page listening exact trash abilities but the bosses are listed. Keep voicing the need for trash to be included in the dungeon journal.
Singing steel is the name of the ability, and while there is a ācast timeā you canāt interrupt it. Even stunning it only delays it, which can desync them a little. Problem is, thatās one of many many wombo combos in there. lol.
The bellowing shout + Singing steel or Black Tar bomb, are big killers in those packs. Black tar bomb is in the same boat, has a ācast timeā but just spam casts.
The basic UI is drastically unsuited for a lot of the content. This I 100% agree with.
Singing Steel is the tank buster that applies a dot. It does have a cast time and can be stunned as you pointed out.
Iron Ambush is the shadowstep ability.
[**Iron Ambush**](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=257270/iron-ambush)
100 yd range
Instant
[Appears behind a random enemy and inflict 1081174 Physical damage.](https://www.wowhead.com/spell=256866/iron-ambush)
It has no cast or tell, it just launches, sometimes twice on the same target with no recourse.
It really is a talent for people to be blissfully ignorant
You two do understand that the two things are linked right? As in Singing steel ācastā is instantly followed by the ambush teleport. Delay one, delays the other.
I literally got online and just tested this by going into M0 and this is not how the mechanic behaves at all.
It fires off inconsistently some time after the Singing Steel. I only killed a couple of the mobs, but at 603 on my dk it took a hot minute so they cast it multiple times.
If nothing else, it very definitely does not happen in succession immediately at the end of the Singing Steel cast. Please feel to prove me wrong.
Edit to confirm that I just killed another pack and had the same results. The Iron Ambush either has a random delay after Singing Steel or simply in the random spell queue and sometimes it fires immediately but other times it even skips it.
Iām gonna be honest, I thought you got me on this one, but nah fam, youāre wrong on this one. This mechanic is just as dumb as op made it out to be.
I never disagreed that it was dumb. Only that it can be delayed. Mind you, that could end up putting two of them in sync. So it ends up being a damned if ya do and damned if ya donāt.
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I was more hinting at the shade we got for being ignorant, when in fact it was exactly as we described it, not something you can reliably pre-pop defensives for. 
I donāt think players are to be blamed for not being prepared for an untelegraphed random double ambush
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The target may not be predictable but the damage and timing is. It is absolutely not a slot machine nor is it a one shot mechanic. Poor tanking pull patterns, healer awareness, and dps priority damage can result in deaths that seem that is the case. Most players donāt look into what actually happened and chalk it open to bad luck.
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I literally went in and tested it. Iāll have to post video evidence to satisfy you. Itās on a spell queue. The timing is absolutely not predictable and I have without question been on the end of an instant death when two of them landed at the same time.
Were you at full health? Were there any other damage instances? Did someone stun one to stagger the timing? Have you considered CCing/killing one or stun locking/hard focusing one before moving onto another pull? What level was the key? They also prefer ranged. So the target can be predictable. It will either be you or a ranged dps. If your the only ranged it will be you, so you can pre defensive and burn one to avoid a double. Counterplays exist. Is it difficult? Yes. Is it unnecessarily difficult? Subjective. At what key level does it become impossible? I donāt know. I know that I play a ranged dps and do title level keys and have yet in recent memory to have died to that without any other factors involved (low health at the time, combo from a raider grip or enforcer shout ect)
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