Design finished? DK General Tree

Classes Death Knight
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Pasted this to the PTR forums as well in the hopes of it getting someone’s attention.

So apparently the design phase for talents is over? You seriously cannot be happy with some of the talents in the Death Knight trees. So once again here I am running this cup along the bars.

Sacrifical Pact
There is no other cooldown in this game that requires one to use another cooldown in order for it to actually work. Additionally is this a DPS cooldown or a defensive ability? Pick one and make it better.

Solution:- Make this a raid/party utility talent. Could function like paladin Blessing of Sacrifice or maybe a two person spirit link.

Control Undead
Firstly this cannot even be used by Unholy. Secondly, make rogues talent into Pick Lock, Mages Food Table or Warlocks Summon. And watch how many of them also DODGE that talent like the plague.

Solution:- Control Undead goes baseline like so many other class niche utility spells. New talent could do so many cool things

  • Make ghoul permanent for Blood/Frost
  • Replace Timmy with abomination for unholy
  • Current tier set ghoul summon etc etc

So many cool thematic options are available, I know you guys can do it. Demo locks are getting a pitlord for lights sake.

Enfeeble
Useless for Unholy with a permanent pet, not entirely sure how I would classify this for Blood/Frost without hurting someone’s feelings.

Everyone hates RNG, especially when the effects are not visually apparent or promote interesting gameplay scenarios. This currently does neither.

Without perma ghoul for Blood/Frost you are limited to what pet options you can implement, remember this is the General Class Tree.

Solution:- Your diseases occasionally Enfeeble the target reducing attack/casting speed by X and damage dealt to the Death Knight by Y for Z sec.

Suppression
Worst talent node of all classes in DF. Avoidance is totally useless. This could be a 30% reduction to AoE damage and people still would dodge it, AoE isn’t usually prominent nor threatening outside of Raid and when it is, it’s usually one shot or raid defensives to cover it.

Solution:- Your movement speed is increased by X%. Name changed to Supernatural Speed.

Brittle
Good for Unholy with superstrain. Feels bad for everyone else.

Solution:- Flat damage bonus against targets with diseases. Let’s not pretend this talent offers any type of interesting gameplay engagement with its RNG and low duration/damage increase.

Clenching Grasp
A 25 sec cooldown 50% slow on a class with a spammable ranged 70% slow. This talent sums up the effort applied to the DK trees for me. Zero thought or effort went into this, as if designed by someone who doesn’t play or have a vested interest in the class.

Solution:- Needs a DG cooldown reduction at the very least to make this palatable.

Blood Draw
Will either be rubbish as it currently is, or overpowered from a survivability standpoint depending on tuning. The MAIN issue is the toxic gameplay this will create in AoE situations where I will be forced to pull agro with Dark Command and proc this on large groups for the damage.

Solution:- This talent should instead activate Dark Succor anytime you suffer X% of your health in damage over Y sec.

Unholy Bond
A 3% increase in strength for Fallen Crusader for two points for 15 sec. Unless runeforges are getting reworked press X for doubt this is ridiculously weak this far into the tree for two points.

Solution:- At least needs to be able to apply a second runeforge to a two-handed weapon, plus bigger numbers.

Soul Reaper
So we’re happy with a resource generator for a capstone. Even if it does big damage after tuningpress X for doubt. The resource generation is boring and not capstone worthy imo.

Solution:- The secondary effect needs specialisation specific effects that possibly switch up the gameplay loop a bit when under 35% HP. It could grant Bone Shields for Blood. Festering Wounds for Unholy or Razor Ice stacks for Frost.

Please don’t leave this talents as is, they still need work.

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Not too sure what you mean with this, it works with Unholy’s permanent pet.

It’s actually one of the strongest nodes.

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I think he means that Control Undead don’t really synergize with Unholy’s kit. As in, you can’t use Dark Transformation on it since the controlled undead replaces Timmy in the process

Think that’s how Control Undead fundamentally worked for Unholy.

… Are you sure about that?

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Yeah Control Undead for Unholy might as well not exist, especially with the number of pet focused talents in the Unholy tree, the DPS loss will be significant. Far more than any opportunity cost of removing one undead creature for 5mins.

Regarding Unholy Bond, we have a single point strength node in Might of Thassarian for 2% in Row 5 VS a two point node in Row 9 for 3% strength some of the time with Unholy Bond.

Unholy Bond needs a significant numbers increase or the ability to use two runeforges on two-handed weapons to make it a suitable Row 9 talent. Having two runeforges on a weapon is the ONLY way I ever seeing other rune forges we have being used bar Razor Ice for Frost obviously.

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As much as I’d like to see some more cool things happen with DK’s like abom in PVE, I highly doubt any kind of change will happen here on in, it’ll just be a numbers game

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Agreed, there’s answers to the problems but they’re quiet happy to pretend everything is fine. Our class tree is one of the worst IMO, we’re buying back ALOT of talents we had baseline and as a result, you’re kind of forced into getting them back before looking into new talents to buy.

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It is literal garbage.

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The section I quoted was under enfeeble, not control undead:

Probably just an error then.

Regarding Unholy Bond, it’s an average of 2.5% strength or so. It’s true that we have might of thassarian giving 2% for one but compared to other slots it is powerful. Compare to Icy Talons, Rune Mstery etc

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This is just taking from early DK. Its basically Death Pact its just Death Pact didnt do damage. So its like Death Pact and Corpse Explosion (when used on your pet) combined. It gives some choice. Not that bad of a talent really.

Really only beneficial for Frost and Blood. I still avoid it within the tree because other things are more beneficial.

Its an annoyance in pve and not needed so its a pvp talent mainly. There can be uses for it in pve, but for the most part its a pvp option.

Just going to avoid it for the most part.

Depends on how this really works. If there is an ICD or whatever else. Its just going to be passive damage increase, you shouldnt really pay attention to it. Flat damage bonus against targets with diseases just makes it a mandatory talent and could bring down damage of other stuff since this would always be up. Its like diseases in wrath, technically they could remove the damage increase and just put it on the abilities since its always going to be up. I like it better that its on diseases because it promotes better play, not really going to worry about this talent.

Can be good in certain situations so you dont have to waste a rune on chains. For instance if there is a mob that moves towards another mob and you dont want them to meet. You can grip it away with this talent and slow it at the same time so you dont have to use chains. Good in certain situations. Pair it with deaths reach most likely for these situations. Just another niche talent.

Eh. looks to be a survival talent like Ardent Defender.

Extremely strong. All these str increases add up.

I hate this ability and always have. Even if it increased my overall damage by 20% I wouldnt take it. Ill avoid it so I dont care where they put it. Prefer it to be a capstone myself so its even easier to avoid.

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Armoured to the Teeth
You gain Strength equal to 10% of your Armor value.

We have to spend a rune, for a chance to receive a worse strength increase? Not to mention, their previous talent increases armour by 20%.

Quick Thinking
Increases haste by 2% and your auto attack critical strikes increase your auto attack speed by 20% for 10 sec.

Cruel Strikes
Increases critical strike chance by 2% and increases the critical strike damage of Execute by 10%.

These are incomparable to anything in the same tier as the Death Knight tree. Blood Draw has a horrible power-ratio and Icy Talons is hard to keep up for little reward.

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I must be losing my mind, I honestly cannot believe how we can defend these talent designs. Have things gotten so bad that we’re happy to champion mediocrity now? I urge any of you that think our class tree is good to go take a peak at the other plate wearing class that is Two DPS/One Tank specialisation and you’ll see what a bit of thought can do.

Enfeeble is garbage and here is why.

  1. A CHANCE to take 15% less damage for 6 secs from your ghouls target. Any damage reduction you need to pray to activate when you need it is rubbish and might as well do nothing, because that’s what it’s going to do most of the time.
  2. A CHANCE to slow the target by 30% for 6 sec. If you want the target slowed you’ll use Chains of Ice which is more than twice as powerful in both duration and speed reduction.
  3. Now 1 and 2 assume you have a permanent pet, but for Frost and Blood well take everything I’ve said above and make it about 50% worse.

Clenching Grasp is also garbage.

  1. It’s a talent to slow one target by 50% for 6 WHOLE seconds every 25 sec. Just wow, that is just so useful, I can save one rune every 25 sec to slow a target I am currently now in melee range with. Better hope he doesn’t get out of range in those six seconds or you’ll be spending that rune anyway.
  2. The talent immediately next door, which also connects to Unholy Endurance is 2% Strength which will always be taken allowing a far more cost effective push to the bottom part of the tree.

Blood Draw, this talent IS going to cause problems for numerous reasons.

  1. As a DPS the entire purpose of your existence is to both deal damage and also take the least amount of damage possible. Good play from you and your team mates has just negated 2 talent points that you have to spend to reach ERW and Abomb Limb which at this stage will be every DK interested in playing optimally.
  2. Current tuning is 120% of AP which unless AP values are getting massively increased wouldn’t save you anyway in most single raid scenarios or PvP. Unless they buff the numbers.
  3. They buff the numbers, but guess what!? Now it’s DPS positive to actively get yourself below 30% HP, especially in M+ big trash pulls. Terrible design.
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I wont take Enfeeble. Not that great for Blood or Frost so its not really worth it. Im just impartial because its most likely a pvp talent.

I can see a few scenarios where it would be good to have Clenching Grasp. Ragnaros had elementals that would go towards Rag at a certain point, being able to grip and slow without using a rune in these scenarios is pretty beneficial. There were several things where this would be really strong. I would absolutely ignore 2% strength to make the fight much easier for everyone else.

Grim Batol with that one warlock dragon fight where there are those… whatever they are that focus a player and explode when it gets to them and basically kills them. Absolutely a great pick for something like that. Dont need it dont take it, where it is needed its pretty strong.

I wont be taking Blood Draw over say Will of the Necropolis so eh.

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20% Increased Runeforge Effectiveness means:

  • Fallen Crusader: 3% extra strength and an extra 1% percent healing.
  • Razorice: 3% extra Frost Damage taken increase along with 20% extra weapon damage as Frost. I am not sure know if it works like that when the DK doesn’t have the Razorice Enchantment.
  • Stoneskin Gargoyle: 1% Armor and Primary Stat.
  • Hysteria: Max RP and RP gen proc increased by 4 and 4% respectively.
  • Spellwarding: 2% Increased Anti-Magic absorption shield and cast speed redox. Also unsure if it works with Spellwarden.
  • Apocalypse: The numbers of this runeforge is so pitiful that they are not worth mentioning.
  • Sanguination: 57.6% heal up from 48%, an extra 9.6% heal from its proc. Death Strike hits 20% harder based on target missing health.

While that all sound and dandy, you are forgetting that it costs 2 points. So the Node-Stat ratio is half as effective. If there is a DW Frost DK that applies RI, using Spellwarden, FC in MH and Hysteria in OH, while that does sound nice on paper it’s pretty fringe.

Unleashed Frenzy, some boring pile of dogpoo that we all Frost DK need to get for Obliterate to deal Frost Damage, gives 3% strength in total through one node.

Rune Mastery, a proc that procs just as much as FC since we all spend runes anyway, also gives 3% strength for 8 seconds per point.

Might of Thassarian giving 2% is less than ideal point being spent but at least you spend a point on it and cost one point.

Unholy Bond, at best, would give Frost DK especially DW Frost the best bang of its buck because if RI works with GA, Avalanche or other sources of the debuff that doesn’t require the DK to runeforge his weapon with RI, it is best suited for one spec more than others.

Blood and Unholy DK will less likely use it unless the player want more stats. Because for them, at minimum, is 1.5% strength (1.25% in your case) per point spent on it since they at minimum use FC anyway.

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In the instance of the ragnaros fight, you would take Proliferating Chill and use Chains of Ice, still taking the 2% strength of Might of Thassarian because damage is important.

Now these ultra niche uses, if a talent is that niche it should be baseline or be changed.

No-one in a PvP scenario is taking Enfeeble. You CANNOT rely on RNG and as such it’s useless in that setting of if A does B, you need C. Especially with how weak it is. Maybe heavy numbers tuning could make it usable, but I am extremely doubtful seeing as it’s seen zero changes since first iteration.

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I dont agree with that. I think its good to have niche options. Especially when it comes to utility. The way the trees are designed is you can still have that strength and take that death grip talent. You can remove a point from one unneeded utility to put into another which I think is absolutely fine.

I mean… someone will. Someone will find a use for it and say its the best thing ever at some point whether ists garbage or great.

Just like people are using prot warrior to reach glad, or using some high block builds in bg’s with holy shield to be this machine gun of judgements and holy shield damage going out. Looks pretty cool I would say as well.

People will find uses though.

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I agree that there should be some niche talents, but these are not it. There is a marked difference between niche and useless. There is no situation I can think of where these two talents (Enfeeble and Clenching Grasp) are better than just casting Chains of Ice if a slow is needed.

The damage reduction of Enfeeble isn’t even worth mentioning as its low duration/chance to activate/damage reduction is just so low its not worth the price of admission not to mention how much worse they are for Blood/Frost, remember this is in the GENERAL DK tree for some reason. Now compare this talent to the other options in the row such as Sacrificial Pact, March of Darkness, Anti-Magic Barrier, Improved Death Strike, Permafrost, Anticipation and Blinding Sleet. Sacrificing any of those for Enfeeble is akin to madness, no two ways about it.

Now Clenching Grasp you could waste a talent on an ability that is completely outclassed by Chains of Ice, or you could gain 2% Strength with Might of Thassarian which still allows you access to Unholy Endurance and Death’s Echo.

Now of course you’ll have people who don’t know what they’re doing select such trap talents and be a negative impact to their friends and allies. The best you can do there is inform them of their mistake, offer advice as to why its bad and hope they take it and understand their class a little bit better.

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Chains of ice costs a rune, slowing grip doesnt. Thats the reason I would take it.

It probably isnt. But you know someone out there will absolutely do something with it with unholy. Thats all im saying. Prot paladins and priests have it far worse so having a grip that slows (think it was a glyph that would make it so grip applied chains cant remember if it was free chains or not though) isnt the end of the world for me.

I also dont think you have to necessarily make the decision between 2% strength and a slow on your grip. That point can really come from anywhere.

Absolutely, and I welcome it to be honest. Not everything is going to be good, something might be cool, something might be visually pleasing like desecrated ground in wrath, but there is no reason to take it in a pve scenario which I see a lot of people do. A slow during questing has very little use, no use on bosses, its an annoyance as a tank and unlike a warlock or hunter pet you cant just let it die.

I think its relatively well done. Some talents might be an absolute waste of development time but so be it.

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Really appreciate your content and most of your contributions on these forums, but I can’t help but notice how the only comments I see from you on threads about improving DK design borderline toxic positivity where it almost seems like you side with the devs just because you personally feel that everything is fine.

That’s a valid stance, but you yourself have admitted things like soul reaper being a completely useless node for frost, and I’d love to see you voice more things that promote positive changes rather than argue in favor of the things that you feel don’t need changes, especially when you’re a person with influence whom the devs will most certainly hear out over the average player.

These developmental stages are the most crucial, after all.

Just my point of view when perusing these forums and no offense intended, of course.

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On the beta forums, one person other than a blue has even mentioned Clenching Grasp, two have mentioned Enfeeble. What the hell are the guys on the beta even doing? Arguing over why we don’t have Red Eyes for Death Knights?

Taeznak, has made some really good posts on the Beta forums, but it seems like they have fallen on deaf ears and looking at an apples to apples comparison between Warriors and Death Knights, there is zero reason to bring a DK over one into a raid scenario. There is no world where because we lack utility we are GIFTED extra damage to compensate. If your group has a Blood DK, then thats all they will need from the Death Knight camp bar that one token fight every expansion where Death Grip has a use and you stack multiple DK’s to cheese it.

I am convinced there is no-one that plays death knights routinely on the dev team. The quality of talents vs other classes is night and day.

Where some classes are summoning in Pit Lords, others unleashing Meteors from the sky, getting previous playstyles re-intergrated into their trees and/or interesting Procs or interaction between talents/abilities, most of ours amount to a RNG chance to get X stat for a minute period of time or buying back existing functionality of an ability but now in talent form.

IMO the DK class design has been garbage for a long time now, look at Shadowlands, the only covenant worth taking the entire expansion was Necrolord. I haven’t seen a single Bastion DK the whole time, although I have been told and have looked with my own eyes that high rated M+ Blood DKs go Kyrian. There are also zero legendary effects making an appearance in our general tree either mostly because they are far too narrow in their design because of the idea that Frost DKs can only use frost magic, and unholy can only use shadow magic because they lost their Blood and Frost runes somewhere in Draenor.

When you go back and play WotLK Classic and can play the somewhat original vision for Death Knights and its 14+ year old design is superior to what we have today. What more is there to say?

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Actually BDKs go Kyrian.

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