Is there a derp mode spec with less ramps, less buttons to press, no messing with lights wrath or whatever, where I can just sorta stand back and heal and bubble atonement with sustained dmg and mana regen?
Like, something that is fine for low lvl M+ or raids under herioc, or maybe even heroic raids that I overgear.
Sure you⊠you could pws renew and flash heal everyone a. Pretend PWR is PoH. Hang on sounds a lot like holyâŠ
You dont take lights wrath in dungeons
And if you tried pugging with a wacky talent tree you might find yourself uninvited. Disc has a bad enough rep for incompetence as it is.
For M+ you can play reactively and will be just fine in low and mid keys⊠It only takes one PW:Radiance cast to apply atonement to everyone and the healing from Radiance itself is VERY STRONG so you want to use it after the damage is in anyways⊠Then if you can get 4-set that will make it even easier.
But youâll still be healing primarily trough Atonement by doing damage. So if thatâs what you mean then yes that works in M+, what wonât work is trying to play more of a direct healing style expecting Flash Heal and/or Renew to do the heavy lifting, they wonât.
For Raids I wanna say no, but not sure honestly I just play Holy for Normal/Heroic pugs because even if you can ramp the damage patterns simply donât have those big burst windows to make Disc excel⊠Well some late Heroic bosses might.
I played holy for a long time.
One thing I noticed about Disc is you get about 1.5 more âbig raid healsâ out of a proper ramp.
The difference between the two is â disc doesnât let you reactively heal. And it takes 6-9 buttons to properly ramp on a disc. (depending on macros and all that). Where as holy get 3 raid wide cooldowns depending on how they spec on various timers, which they can drive up/or down with proper play actively healing with a constant rotation. Holy can also constantly AoE heal without being punished to heavily for mana usage.
Discâs biggest shortfall seems they get punished for actively keeping people shielded and atonments rolling. So you only want to spot heal on disc.
I did come up with a sorta workable spec, although it has no way to put out big numbers when lots of damage is incoming continuously or a sustained amount of time to top people off immediately.
Would be cool if there where a talent to work ShadowCovenent and Schism into one. And a double Radiance, evengilism into one. It wouldnât be nearly as bad.
The amount of DPS disc puts out falls short of holy sometimes and also does not compensate for the complexity of the class, especially during raids, more so for M+
BFA disc was nice. Compared to this mess.
UPDATE anyway also, I noticed taking dps talents down the row on both trees I am doing 10k dps vs 10.0 elites while getting tossed around and chunked for huge amounts of hp â like â the answer to this isnât âplay shadow or a tankâ is it??? itâs silly
my shadow can do that same elite while doing 60k dps while not getting chunked nearly as hard because of leach, the ability to move, and interrupt.
You do want people to play discipline? Or is it just a meme spec left over from the WoTLK/MoP days because someone got mad?
You must be doing something wrong if itâs only 10k DPS as Disc with full DPS mode. Shadow has some decent sustain but definitely not more than Disc, in general Disc is slower than Shadow ofc but unless the enemy has some sort of DPS check that you need to meet (very rare for open world stuff) then Disc will be more capable of soloing a single big enemy than Shadow.
Disc is not perfect but itâs by no means a âmemeâ spec, itâs currently performing very well in M+ (well above Holy) and many of us find it super fun to play⊠In Raids it hasnât performed that well this expac but itâs not like itâs terrible or anything, it just happens that Holy was stronger this time around.
Disc is pretty easy once you know the rotation, I would be happy to coach you a bit.
Msg me in game and we can talk, I can break things down so itâs easy to understand.
Synnlawl-BleedingHollow
So you only sorta kinda get the performance of the above posters if-and-only if you spec the four talents with harsh disciple. And use shadow covenant and schism.
And itâs still meme. You think you do but you donât⊠the dps is still solidly parsing sub 20k unless you are hitting a big AoE pack of non elites with purge spam and rhapsody. Or a single small group of non elites.
Sustained it still falls off hard with movement and mechanics (my original criticism about ramps being multiple casts) . And you must sacrifice at least some decent survivability and mana regen.
Again. Another case of denial and discipline being tuned around race to world first mythic raiding and atonement. And Iâm not even saying to do away with atonement or rampingâŠdonât go there. Over the last two years there have been several good suggestions for fixing discipline. Iâm not going to rehash them in this thread.
Disciplines current state:
To squishy and dps is atrocious in open world content. Has to sacrifice all DPS to be less squishy in PvP. Disciplines sustainable dps is too low. Disciplines ramp mechanics are unwieldy and even if if usable by AAA+ players. Not suited to normal gameplay. And not very fun. What happens next expansion when you have to add in another few abilities to your ramps⊠and the next. And this is only looking at raid gameplay for the top 1% of progression content. Outside if this the ability to ramp is less useful (impactful) therefore less of a bonus in easy content-normal- or herioc⊠not to mention that unavoidable, sustained ârotâ damage is becoming the norm. This is why M+ does so well on mythics. Because atonement healing is sustainable in mythic.
Either wrap the atonement building process into one raid wide cooldown (the 5-10 raptures and two radiance casts). Or provide something else or adjust atonement. And adjust the damage profiles. And scale atonement. Or give disc raid cooldowns that arenât atonement based.
I get it that die hard disc players are " fine " with the current state of affairs. Itâs almost as if players are afraid to ask for their class to be fixed these daysâŠ
Dragonflight is the best expansion in awhile and classes and talents, even discipline are in a good spot right now compared to shadowlands. (Not BFA imho). However we are only âhalfway thereâ. I see the addicts and discipline Nostalgics coming back and living with the state discipline is in. However itâs part of the same issues choking the game. Tuning only the hardest difficulties, time gating, or gating period (the catalyst not being open till October). Funneling players into certain FOMO specs or gamemodes by both the community and player base.
Iâm not asking for discipline to do the most dps. Or to win with just three button presses. Iâm asking for it to be made fun and viable for world content and normal average everyday play. Im asking that builds that donât take schism, lights wrath, or shadow covenant and harsh discipline be useful and fun and well tuned outside of M+.
What is the point of having these big beautiful talent trees if we end up all taking the same 5 talents. And thereâs no diversity in class fantasy. And we have to press the same literally 10 abilities in roughly the same order every time just to burst a little dps for solo content or do a raid heal. Itâs not really fun or skillful. Hurts the gameplay, particularly outside of raids. And is generally going to cause discipline players new and old to burn out or change spec to holy or shadow or even warlock permanently.
Killing yet another avenue of class fantasy. And what was absolutely one of the funnest and coolest specs in BFA.
Understand this is coming from a sub ilvl 440 perspective. So you know. Someone whos competent enough to KSM in BFA and AoTC Eternal Palace. And doesnât play to the exclusion of beating mythic raids weeks out. Which puts me in the often silent majority. I know the ramp rotation and have topped the HPS meters during raid wide damage spikes already. That isnât the issue. Why do I have to use ramp gameplay to do world quests efficiently, sort if, kind of, lol?
If you play multispec like me you would seriously notice how painful it is to play within discipline outside of groups. If you want people to play discipline, like I would like to. Discipline needs to function well with more builds in ALL content. And perhaps even streamlined a bit. Turn evangelism into a real raid cooldown putting out atonement and a power word shield on everyone (yes a raid upto 40 players) and extending current atonements. Would be an awesome start. Put it on a choice node with radianceâŠ
Think big. Think flexible. Iâm speaking to the devs here. Content and abilities should scale and be more flexible. Across gamemodes too. While still remaining challenging, if you want to reinforce class diversity and the social aspect of the game. Focus on the newbie and average player, tune those experiences to be challenging and rewarding. They are the players who drive population growth and decline. Which in turn is what is going to drive the health of your players and player bases population. At least where it comes to gameplay. You will see less negativity if you understand and follow the above creed. Also, less can be more.
disc does more dps than holy afaik and has an easier time healing dungeons than holyâs whack a mole playstyle
The reason nobodyâs really upset about this is because healers have never been good or quick at open world content - and while disc is slightly behind in single target DPS, itâs not so significantly behind other healer specs that youâre spending a ton more time in solo world content if you were to do it.
Reality is that if youâre doing open world stuff outside group content or farm groups looking to pull HUGE, then you shouldnât be playing a healer unless youâre OK with being painfully slow.
This is a question that every spec in the game has to ask - not just discipline.
But the answer is - you donât have to run these talents. You only ever âhaveâ to run something as youâre hitting cutting edge content. Nobody will recommend you take a build without shadow covenant - because shadow covenant is a very powerful tool and the DPS/healing it gives you is so significant for 2 points. But you CAN run without it and do fine for quite a while. Iâve run builds with PoM in DF - and focused on hardcast heals/dpenance on Disc and cleared +20s in multiple expansions (I havenât done it in DF S2 yet because⊠well, I havenât played S2 much). But it works, and it worked at every ilvl as I was building up to those 20s too.
Ultimately, there will always be a âbestâ build in every RPG. Not a single game has successfully made a system where more choice = more meta choices. Because what is meta depends entirely on content outside of the choices themselves. Youâre given challenges in the form of PvE content, and those challenges have certain requirement, and your build will have to meet them. If your requirement is âmore damageâ then obviously the solution would be more damage in your build.
And spec âbuildsâ canât be looked at in a vacuum. Thereâs not a hidden talent design off in the ether that will increase the damage of a hardcast-heal focused spec without increasing the damage of the damage focused spec at the same time. Even a talent that read âwhen you hardcast heal you do damage!â would inevitably still increase the DPS of a damage-focused build so long as they hardcast every once in a while (and they do).
I donât disagree that disc could be more accessible, but it really depends on design goals. Itâs quite possible that the devs see the spec in a way where itâs OK that the spec has its own hurdles. Itâs unique gameplay that attracts a specific type of person. And very often in a game like WoW (where thereâs a ton of different playstyle options available) not everything is designed with the widest possible appeal in mind.
If they feel like they want to make the spec accessible, then so be it. Thereâs a ton of ways to do that. But considering they havenât over the several years itâs been in game, chances are theyâre OK with it being somewhat niche.
Thanks for this lengthy reply. And yes I agree with you for the most part.
For me disc is in a satisfactory place.
Yes design will always result in a meta. The current state of disc is a symptom of designing around meta aswell.
Another fun and cool addition would be lights wrath being AoE like it is in the lore of the old quest for it. I see that would cause problems with M+ though.
I will say this, the spec is in a very decent spot for M+ and is still very viable in group PvP, however Iâve seen it falling behind since SL.
My observations, criticism and nit-picking now arenât going to make or break the class for the remainder of DF. Especially raid and M+ content.
I am just spoiled perhaps because of the state of Holy Priest from the end of BFA through Shadowlands. It was quite strong in solo content and while I flirted with the other specs, I never felt any painpoints doing Open World content, never felt like I had to leave the spec and class fantasy behind just to do some dailes or world quests.
It would be ideal if discipline could reach that point as a spec and be all around fully rewarding for those people who are more than into just raiding and progression, this not being mutually exclusive. 10.1s weakest point is world content and for discipline this is multiplied because the spec is already fairly slow. At least half as slow slogging through this kind of content.
Itâs been a pet peeve of mine ever since experiencing how good holy can be in this regard.
Another reason for me to point this out: when players swap spec to do world content or a mix of world content and pvp. We arenât building muscle memory or getting better at our spec.
Iâve heard discipline priests are pretty rare sometimes in DF. So maybe this is partly why. Not to mention dps nerfs and mob hp buffs hit all healers in Shadowlands and SF. (Not disregarding the heal nerfs as well, or the sound reasoning imo behind them).
So the TLDR of it. Is that disc has a lot of room for improvement. Just like shadow is now playing smooth as butter. Shadow improved drastically. I can see disc improving massively if their DPS could be buffed by like 5-10k and them getting a true raid wide atonement ability. Something along the lines of Holy Word: Salvation. So ramp would be power infusion>Raid Cooldown>schism>shadow covenant>dps>lights wrath. Along with fishing for procs prior to doing the raid wide cooldown. You would still have a ramp. Still dps through atonement to heal.
As for solo dps in world content. Give us an ability that increases our dps with penalties for each atonement out. A straightforward solution.
I also like how blizzard has really improved the use of Power Word: Shield- the haste buff and cooldown bonus talents for that spell are underrated.
Anyway. Iâm just hoping this information is useful to either the devs or people reading about this spec. Iâm by no means an expert. I really do feel like Iâve gotten a solid grasp around the healing side of the game. And these are my thoughts wanting to main discipline, coming from maining holy for years. And the reason I like disciplines fantasy:
I miss being able to do world content at a comfortable pace- like I was with holy during BFA and SL.
Thanks for trying to decipher my somewhat rambly stream of consciousness on discipline spec.
Then how come it feels like thereâs no damage boost like I donât have the talent?
We got it baseline at lvl 12 then we got tuned down and nerfed so we donât even notice it⊠i played around with disc in SL and BFA and took this talent. In SL they nerfed us so hard it didnât matter either.
If this is baseline. When im not grouped or in a raid I want to see some damage.
Originally it falls off at 5 players. They should just make it fall off at one player and legitimately let us do some base damage with smite, mindblast and penance.
Itâs good it got made baseline. Bad they nerfed our damage because itâs baseline. So instead of having the damage to enjoy world content outside of raids. We just have bad damage. And in raids even less damage. We got this spell baseline and they just subtracted 12% of damage during tuning across all our abilities lol. May as well not have even gotten it.
Very sneaky and dumb.
Go fight Quillmo the Ancient or another elite protodrake in waking shores while in discipline spec and tell me itâs fun to be doing 9k-11k dps, especially after the mob hp boost. Whichever one casts blinding radiance⊠that is what spurred me to make my original post. Itâs literally a 10 second fight in shadow spec and I can also keep the casts of the stun locked down. Switch to discipline and it becomes a 5 minute fight and cannot even avoid the mobs cc by facing away or mixing Mind Control in between fears. Itâs dumb lol. Simply buffing the DPS of healers. And discipline priests back to what it should be would solve the problems. Nerf the throughput of atonement.
Originally. I wasnât going to complain about the healer dps thing. After testing some builds though and playing in open world content I just had a 
facepalming moment.
I am averaging about 35k-45k dps at the end of dungeons and can have spikes as high as 90k dps during large group pulls. The damage can be very high and the healing can go beyond 120k hps with CDs rolling. Itâs just difficult, thereâs a lot of button bloat. I donât do much raiding, I have 8/9 on heroic and some fights I can top the healing meters as disc but the biggest thing about disc is you need to know when the dmg spikes are coming ahead of time to a much higher degree than other healers do because ramping takes awhile. Disc is very powerful right now, the problem most disc priests are facing is getting used to when dmg spikes are going to happen and already be like 5 seconds into your ramp before it starts. This is by far the most difficult part about being a disc priest. Itâs not that the rotation is hard, itâs purely about timing your ramps, if youâre not timing it perfectly the dmg and healing will just feel weak.
My advice would be do the same dungeon over and over until youâre very comfortable with when the dmg spikes are coming.
I said this before but if youâre online send me a whisper and I would be happy to go over things in more detail.
Synnlawl-BleedingHollow
You can do way more than this if you build well and use dark reprimand, which is what I was trying to say. You canât build non-damage and expect to keep up with an hpriest taking all their damage talents at all.
Hpriest will do more if they never have to heal themselves, sure. Being able to empyreal blaze, use their holy words aggressively and use searing light will net them a lot. But itâs not like weâre 20k on average behind.
All damage nerfs happened far before baseline sins and the huge bonus given to sins. They werenât related at all. Disc was doing too much damage in raid before that, and thatâs why it got nerfed so much through 2 expansions.
As is our damage is competitive with other healers.
Having learned how OP this is. Iâm a bit happier.
Meh. Healers need more dps 
Yep, this is consistent with what Iâm seeing⊠Usually end-up around 35k DPS in Dungeons as Disc and thatâs with me not running the highest damage build, using Versatility flask and no damage potions.
For HPS yeah Iâve had around 120k in some high-hps checks (overall for the fight)⊠Mana sustain is also pretty great with the 4-setâŠ
This is the strongest Disc has ever been in M+, by a fair margin Iâd say.
In terms of healer damage in dungeons/raids it seems like Disc is on average the 2nd highest, probably first if you consider PI:
What ilvl keys and or tierâŠ
Why is there such a horrific disparity between your numbers and mine at 418 ilvl?
Why is world content tuned at your ilvl? BiS trinkets? Yes. I continually press buttons.
You guys are doing big AoE pulls aswell. Lets talk about fighting world elites or world quest mobs. Sustained single target dps. Without a tank. And while having to do mechanics (the blinding flash ability I talked about earlier). Donât tell me no one should be soloing these. Everyone does and itâs trivial to solo the bigger pre 10.1 elites and world bosses under 3mil hp as shadow.
You guys are talking endgame Meta with appropriate gear trinkets and builds and AoE with a massive blind spot for the rest of the game and people who may like to play disc, see how it preforms at 405 ilvl in world content and quit. Itâs a terrible blind spot yaâll have for the most important part of the game.
Yeah with rhapsody I can get some pretty burst numbers off of large packs of small low hp mobs too. Thats not the dps Iâm talking about. Iâm talking over 1 million hp mobs single target. With movement and mechanics that hinder dps and cause us to need to cast self sustain. Right now my shadow spec sustains better through leach and shear dps - bursts of 70-80k. And should not be nerfed. While in discipline im lucky to sustain 9k and have to spend a lot of time self healing due to how little actual single target dps I can put out and how squishy we are even with talents towards PW:S.
You guys arenât arguing or debating entirely in good faith. Itâs obvious disc doesnât need itâs AoE and dot damage increased for M+. (And im guessing BiS endgame gearing).
Not to mention tank vs healer in PvP even âŠlol what another bag of sour apples and oranges⊠tanks are doing a lot of damage and cc in pvp. Iâve killed a few- usually because they are poorly geared and unskilled. Those sitting at 440 ilvl tho wipe the floor with open world pvp. No contest.
We are playing two different games here.
Yes I mean I am 440 now⊠I was around 418 at the start of the patch I think, maybe 420 but I was doing fine in questing and stuff, pretty sure I could pull like 25k DPS single target if I had no party to heal⊠Just shield yourself and then DPS so you heal yourself trough atonement.
Iâm not trying to be disingenuous itâs really not difficult to quest as Disc, and yeah you take longer to kill stuff than a DPS spec specially in AOE, but if you are pulling 1-2 mobs at a time is totally fine⊠I do go shadow sometimes for questing, itâs like 50/50 for me⊠Usually if Iâm going to be questing for some time Iâll make the swap otherwsie Iâll stay Disc, and also if I need to solo one big enemy I might go Disc too.
Compared to other healers is not really worse, in fact Priest is the only class where I might actually stay on healing spec to quest because it just feels pretty smooth and natural as Disc, every other class I instantly swap to a DPS/Tank spec.
Itâs way meh compared to where it was in BFA. And ppl used to complain about it then. However I see where youâre coming from.
SL was a horrible state of affairs for discipline (unless kyrian) and I just donât see a big improvement.
Im going to do a lot more questing with this dark reprimand and harsh discipline build to see if I feel better about it. Weâll see. I only started messing around with discipline in open world content again this week. And I avoided those two talents because they werenât really appealing.
I wouldnât consider them âez mode talentsâ though by far they arenât hard to use either.
I guess they are sort of mandatory in this case and while itâs not terrible. I donât find it ideal either.
Darn, well I mean maybe give it more time/practice and actually take it to for a few runs before posting such strong opinions on the current iteration of the spec?.