I think they have just a different kind of investment (though not necessarily a good one). It's like... say a new DM who gets so wrapped up in world building and the story they wish to tell that they forget that the story is their for their players to engage in, to be a part of, and to be invested in. Does that make sense?
Since I've 100% been that DM, it absolutely does.
My hostility toward the devs is largely overblown for effect. I actually strongly believe that they're operating in good faith, and that their efforts are stunted by incredibly weak leadership, a professional environment that's simply
too chummy, and the ivory tower / echo chamber / bunker mentality that you know i have strong feelings about.
10/28/2018 08:08 PMPosted by
Yagarr
I think it's absolutely absurd that raising ONE GUY is being depicted as the straw that broke the camel's back instead of either burning an entire island of civilians alive or raising the Horde's army in Siege of Undercity.
They've had enough time to process things now I guess. Sometimes people don't speak up about something until it's driving them crazy. Except Baine, as he got an injection of the mah honors randomly (like really, he's a Tauren, he should be talking about going against nature instead).
Of course I made sure his family was taken care of. Do I look like a monster?
On second thought, don't answer that.
I gave Zelling my word that his family would remain safe. I intend to keep my promise, even if I have to do it from the shadows.
I'm mostly super relieved by this and that Voss actually is taking care of Zelling's family. Was very nervous about that.
10/28/2018 08:42 PMPosted by
Kazala
I think they have just a different kind of investment (though not necessarily a good one). It's like... say a new DM who gets so wrapped up in world building and the story they wish to tell that they forget that the story is their for their players to engage in, to be a part of, and to be invested in. Does that make sense?
Since I've 100% been that DM, it absolutely does.
My hostility toward the devs is largely overblown for effect. I actually strongly believe that they're operating in good faith, and that their efforts are stunted by incredibly weak leadership, a professional environment that's simply too chummy, and the ivory tower / echo chamber / bunker mentality that you know i have strong feelings about.
I can totally see where you are coming from. At the same time, the quandry becomes how to articulate and present concerns in a way that can make institutional culture shift.
WHICH IS REALLY HARD
10/28/2018 08:44 PMPosted by
Amadis
Of course I made sure his family was taken care of. Do I look like a monster?
On second thought, don't answer that.
I gave Zelling my word that his family would remain safe. I intend to keep my promise, even if I have to do it from the shadows.
I'm mostly super relieved by this and that Voss actually is taking care of Zelling's family. Was very nervous about that.
not just taking care of his family, but having to do so from the shadows which seems to indicate possible risk to herself
I wouldn't worry too much about Derek. After all, they've already shown that they're willing to wholly invalidate the Horde's war campaign from one patch to the next, so having him fail completely and neatly tying up the theme of "Everything you did failed and had no effect" is hardly out of the question.
I hope there's at least a hint of what's going to happen in 8.2 at Blizzcon. I am so very done with 8.1. All it has done is act like a drip, drip, drip of Chinese water torture except it's feces and rotten garbage dripping on your forehead.
10/28/2018 08:56 PMPosted by
Jellex
I wouldn't worry too much about Derek. After all, they've already shown that they're willing to wholly invalidate the Horde's war campaign from one patch to the next, so having him fail completely and neatly tying up the theme of "Everything you did failed and had no effect" is hardly out of the question.
i mean zelling is talking about how he must put things right
Baine and Talanji are basically saying "this is far enough and we will get mad if she goes any further!" But not to Sylvanas herself? Just to us?
Sylvanas has not agreed to either tone down or told them to shut up - because they have not even brought it up to her yet?
Baine and Talanji are telling us and anyone in earshot that if Sylvanas does anything else, they will bring up the mounting grievances?
Or do they intend to actually do something immediately?
I suppose that will be covered in the telling of the tale. They are waiting a while. Talanji knew about the Forsaken and the Horde's Undead Warchief already. What was she expecting.
10/28/2018 08:46 PMPosted by
Saiphas
I can totally see where you are coming from. At the same time, the quandry becomes how to articulate and present concerns in a way that can make institutional culture shift. WHICH IS REALLY HARD
It
is really hard.
You're stuck on the outside with no power or influence asking someone on the inside to please open up a little and accept some constructive feedback while they're getting bombarded with death threats and troll spam, and the more frustrated you get by the perception of being ignored, the more likely you are to get heated and just become part of the clamor.
not just taking care of his family, but having to do so from the shadows which seems to indicate possible risk to herself
There's a thought I've been having around this.
Because I'll be honest, i really
like Voss 2.0. A lot.
But i have to wonder if, from a hardcore Forsaken perspective, she might be just a wee bit too...
Human?
And while that's probably largely why i like her, because I typically
don't view the setting through a hardcore Forsaken lens, I have to imagine there are some folks out there who will feel awfully disenfranchised if she and Zelling are the future of the race... and those are frankly the folks that the Forsaken should be written for, not me.
Or do they intend to actually do something immediately... I suppose that will be covered in the telling of the tale.
Their immediate follow-up is the quest-line wherein Talanji, Baine, and Vol'jin try to discover who manipulated Vol'jin into putting her in charge.
10/28/2018 09:02 PMPosted by
Kazala
Their immediate follow-up is the quest-line wherein Talanji, Baine, and Vol'jin try to discover who manipulated Vol'jin into putting her in charge.
and what the found out is something hiding in the shadows may have blinded vol'jin to that felguard so that he will be mortally injured, and easily manipulated into making sylvanas warchief. and then some noble force of valor brought his spirit back and now he is no mere spirit
I know I’m not going to get the quote exactly right but:
“A million deaths is a statistic, one death is a tragedy.”
Idk why it’s expected that the characters in game should act completely rationally and not like irl humans.
and what the found out is something hiding in the shadows may have blinded vol'jin to that felguard so that he will be mortally injured, and easily manipulated into making sylvanas warchief. and then some noble force of valor brought his spirit back and now he is no mere spirit
Yes, that quest-line. We'd already seen it quite some time ago in data mining, but we didn't know the order of events.
Unfortunately, if they plan on taking any concrete action following those revelations, they're super vague about it and it won't be happening in this patch cycle. Their statements at the conclusion are somewhere along the lines of, "welp, let's go home and try to help her be more honorable!", which is somewhere between moderately and severely nauseating.
My man Gallywix being based af, as per usual.
Like others have said. Why didn't the Deathguards in Zandalar, Nathanos, and Voss tip off Talanji to the nature of the Undead?
At least Jakra'zet makes the point right away as the Horde arrives. NOW it's an issue because it's Derek Proudmoore? Now Talanji remembers Rezan?
It makes Talanji look a little dopey.
Btw with these datamined lines can it be acknowledged yet there’s no way she remains as warchief at the end of BfA? EVERYONE is against her.
She might have more story to be told and not die and she does some good things but they aren’t going to suddenly make every Horde character love her.
10/28/2018 09:10 PMPosted by
Kazala
Their statements at the conclusion are somewhere along the lines of, "welp, let's go home and try to help her be more honorable!", which is somewhere between moderately and severely nauseating.
I'm not even upset, I'm too baffled to be upset. I'm completely dumbfounded that that's how Talanji reacts. It's such a gigantic disconnect. It's like she wasn't paying attention at all during the entire questline.
Just as an aside as long as we're on the topic, that questline also has Gadrin and Ebonhorn saying "I'm nowhere near as awesome and strong as Talanji is, she's so much better at this spirit calling than me." She's better at it than the
10,000 year old dragon who's been presumably spiritwalking for all that time.
Anyway I just wanted to rant. Back to your regularly schedules Sylvanas thread.
10/28/2018 09:18 PMPosted by
Reignac
10/28/2018 09:10 PMPosted by
Kazala
Their statements at the conclusion are somewhere along the lines of, "welp, let's go home and try to help her be more honorable!", which is somewhere between moderately and severely nauseating.
I'm not even upset, I'm too baffled to be upset. I'm completely dumbfounded that that's how Talanji reacts. It's such a gigantic disconnect. It's like she wasn't paying attention at all during the entire questline.
I think it’s more a result of WoW’s writing uniqueness in that we get chapters in chunks every few months or so.
Saying “let’s get rid of her right now!” and then nothing happening for a couple months imo is more out of place.
Particularly depending on what they plan on doing with Sylvanas.
Don't act so surprised. We both know the Banshee Queen has always been capable of tactics like these. As she's so fond of saying, they are the arrows in her quiver.
This changes nothing for me... or for what I need to do.
I'm curious who says this. My guess is Nathanos. But at the same time, this is not a saying that is favorable to the Forsaken, and Nathanos would probably not like the saying because of that.
Last time we saw Sylvanas use this phrase was in
Egde of Night when Lydon asked her what they were going to do about Garithos and his soldiers that were helping them retake the capital:
"But what of the humans?" a young alchemist asked as the din faded. Sylvanas recognized him from the previous night's fighting. A cool intelligence flickered in his eye sockets: Lydon was his name. Already he'd come to embrace his situation, referring to humans as if they were a separate race; she made a mental note to make use of him.
"The humans will serve their purpose," she answered, her mind already calculating. "They believe they are liberating the city. Let them fight on our behalf and spend themselves for our gain. They are"—she stumbled upon an analogy she'd used before—"arrows in our quiver."
The heaving mass of undead clapped and coughed and hacked gleefully in assent. Sylvanas regarded the whole mob coldly. And so are you, she thought to herself.
Blizzard giveth, and they take away.
It's also disappointing that there's no one questioning the validity of the Derek plan. It would be nice if at least one person would question why the Proudmoores would ever let Derek get anywhere near them, since they know that the only reason he's returned is because of Sylvanas. She even taunted them with his body in the war campaign, so there's no chance anyone would think that he just happened to come back on his own or something (maybe the Drustvar witches did something to him).
Nothing has been presented that paints Derek as having any unique abilities or powers. The plan, as far as we know, hinges on him somehow getting close enough to Jaina / Katherine to kill them (instead of an actual assassin like Lilian or Garona). It's just a uniquely awful plan - making him into a coffee table and refusing to use a coaster on it is somehow a better use of him.