This story sucked the second they had to back track at Blizzcon last year and make sure everyone knew that the Horde burned down Teldrassil and that they Alliance couldn't be the aggressors in the war.
I mean ... the Alliance's leader is "
peace, peace for everyone" Anduin, and our leader is "
the reason I'm not the Lich King is because I work for the Horde" Sylvanas. I'm not sure how you could have played out this scenario with the Alliance being the aggressors (without retconning Jaina's development or making Genn fundamentally betray Anduin ... again)?
Want to complain about something? Complain that she was made our Warchief in the first place. Anyone paying attention to her in Legion (when her first act as Warchief was to take ONLY her Forsaken and go off on a secret, personal chore in Stormheim ... guaranteeing she was still on her "
avoid my afterlife at all costs" character arc) should have known we were in deep trouble.
This story sucked the second they had to back track at Blizzcon last year and make sure everyone knew that the Horde burned down Teldrassil and that they Alliance couldn't be the aggressors in the war.
I can't really argue with that. It would have been a more interesting start if Anduin had to capitulate to the people in the Alliance who justifiably demand action against the Horde, Forsaken in particular, and realises he isn't running an empire where he just gets to order the other races around. Either he takes action on his terms or they do it themselves.
10/29/2018 05:12 PMPosted by
Droité
Its "join the Sylvanas cult of personality, or tough it out on your own ... lets see how far you get lol!"
Well, we keep hearing about how it's not General Hawthorne's fault that the fleeing tauren from the camp-that-shall-not-be-named were killed by quillboar or desert predators. So, applying the same logic, Sylvanas and the Forsaken aren't responsible for what happens to undead who decide to go it alone either.
10/29/2018 06:34 PMPosted by
Zuleika
10/29/2018 05:12 PMPosted by
Droité
Its "join the Sylvanas cult of personality, or tough it out on your own ... lets see how far you get lol!"
Well, we keep hearing about how it's not General Hawthorne's fault that the fleeing tauren from the camp-that-shall-not-be-named were killed by quillboar or desert predators. So, applying the same logic, Sylvanas and the Forsaken aren't responsible for what happens to undead who decide to go it alone either.
That's... not really the same logic though. Camp Taurajo was more about capturing the location, the refugees were just allowed an escape rather than imprisonment or death. It's not an apathy thing with the Forsaken, but rather knowing that independent Forsaken rarely make anything of themselves, and it's almost insurance that they won't be a threat.
It's "the civilians are innocent" vs. "they won't be a problem to us." Both are a form of "not our problem," but not necessarily interchangeable.
10/29/2018 06:34 PMPosted by
Zuleika
10/29/2018 05:12 PMPosted by
Droité
Its "join the Sylvanas cult of personality, or tough it out on your own ... lets see how far you get lol!"
Well, we keep hearing about how it's not General Hawthorne's fault that the fleeing tauren from the camp-that-shall-not-be-named were killed by quillboar or desert predators. So, applying the same logic, Sylvanas and the Forsaken aren't responsible for what happens to undead who decide to go it alone either.
No its absolutely Hawthorne's fault. He failed in his diplomacy to get the Quillboars to provide aid (which he did attempt); failed to understand the terrain enough to ensure survival of the evacuees; and lost control of TWO conscript forces that were placed under his command (resulting in firebombing the town and looting). He attempted to do the right thing, but bungled it so atrociously that he should be held accountable (and was, as he was killed by the Horde).
Also ... even as a Horde, god I'm sick of hearing about Taraujo...
I still wonder how this is going to turn out. Are the Proudmoores really dumb enough to let a Forsaken version of their son allowed back over? Like doesn't that have bad idea written all over it.
10/29/2018 07:42 PMPosted by
Breenss
I still wonder how this is going to turn out. Are the Proudmoores really dumb enough to let a Forsaken version of their son allowed back over? Like doesn't that have bad idea written all over it.
Before this whole "mind conditioning" mess came out, I had thought up a way that Sylvanas could use Derek as a "weapon" without any of this sinister mind-control mess. She could have just raised him normally (still traumatic) but released him as a mental mess back to the Proudmoores and just let them deal with him. Keep him? Then you raise the suspicions of the other noble houses or run the risk of him going off the deep end on his own. Kill him? The safer option, sure, but then you give Sylvanas a little knife of guilt to twist at a later date.
In short, it'd be a play that cost her almost nothing and would have almost a guaranteed return, even if a small one. Instead, however, we had to have the evil cranked up to 11, because nothing Horde-related in 8.1 can come within hailing distance of being portrayed as positive.
10/29/2018 06:41 PMPosted by
Droité
Also ... even as a Horde, god I'm sick of hearing about Taraujo...
Fellow Hordie who would like to echo this.
We got to kill Hawthorne.
The looters were slaughtered.
The slain villagers were given their last rites.
We can let it go now.
She burned a world tree, she killed her own soldiers with the plague, she ordered attacks against civilians but it's the ressurrection of this ONE GUY that makes Baine say "Oh she's gone too far!" ?
Like really?
She went too far AGES AGO and NOW that spineless calf decides to do something.
10/29/2018 08:08 PMPosted by
Zaluzan
She burned a world tree, she killed her own soldiers with the plague, she ordered attacks against civilians but it's the ressurrection of this ONE GUY that makes Baine say "Oh she's gone too far!" ?
Like really?
She went too far AGES AGO and NOW that spineless calf decides to do something.
8.1: The Horde Repeatedly Sits On Its Own Balls
10/29/2018 08:08 PMPosted by
Zaluzan
She burned a world tree, she killed her own soldiers with the plague, she ordered attacks against civilians but it's the ressurrection of this ONE GUY that makes Baine say "Oh she's gone too far!" ?
Like really?
She went too far AGES AGO and NOW that spineless calf decides to do something.
Cairne was a terrible father.
10/29/2018 03:38 PMPosted by
Jerolan
I like to headcanon that the Ancients are just the night elf equivalent to things like the Draenei guardians or the Protoss Dragoons/Immortals....
Speaking of are we still sure the Draenei and Protoss aren't related?
Are you implying that Protoss are descended from Night Elves?...
The Protoss Dragoon in any case is a Khala inspired piece of machinery and the Khala originates from Amon's Khaydarin Crystals(and Khaydarin Crystals especially infused with Khala energies has Amon's Red coloration by default) so wouldn't the Night Elves be connected to Amon or Duran(who once had Black Eyes like the Night Warrior Night Elves)?...
10/29/2018 06:24 PMPosted by
Droité
This story sucked the second they had to back track at Blizzcon last year and make sure everyone knew that the Horde burned down Teldrassil and that they Alliance couldn't be the aggressors in the war.
I mean ... the Alliance's leader is "peace, peace for everyone" Anduin, and our leader is "the reason I'm not the Lich King is because I work for the Horde" Sylvanas. I'm not sure how you could have played out this scenario with the Alliance being the aggressors (without retconning Jaina's development or making Genn fundamentally betray Anduin ... again)?
Want to complain about something? Complain that she was made our Warchief in the first place. Anyone paying attention to her in Legion (when her first act as Warchief was to take ONLY her Forsaken and go off on a secret, personal chore in Stormheim ... guaranteeing she was still on her "avoid my afterlife at all costs" character arc) should have known we were in deep trouble.
I still will argue that line from Sylvanas is taken out of context often. In the context, it seems pretty likely that she was just being snarky, which is why Garrosh tells her to watch her clever mouth or something afterwards.
Also, I complain both about Sylvanas being thrust into being warchief, and them deciding to amp up her villainy after the fact. She didn't have to be warchief, but if they decided they wanted her to, they could have made a plot of her growing into a better person and leader for her people. Instead they decided to throw the horde in the toilet.
10/29/2018 11:43 PMPosted by
Verlius
I still will argue that line from Sylvanas is taken out of context often. In the context, it seems pretty likely that she was just being snarky, which is why Garrosh tells her to watch her clever mouth or something afterwards.
Also, I complain both about Sylvanas being thrust into being warchief, and them deciding to amp up her villainy after the fact. She didn't have to be warchief, but if they decided they wanted her to, they could have made a plot of her growing into a better person and leader for her people. Instead they decided to throw the horde in the toilet.
She's been on this crazy villain train ever since she got her new motivation in "
Edge of Night", or do you want to forget about her activities throughout ... like all of Cataclysm? Or War Crimes? Or Dark Mirror? People WANTED her to start becoming better person, but they neglect to give an actual motivation for her to do that ... other than "She should start caring about ALL the Horde (even though her relationship with even her own Forsaken is still left incredibly ambiguous), because we like the idea of her over who she actually is".
Bluntly speaking, yes ... they could have decided to make her a "better person" when they decided on her character arc post Arthas 9 years ago; but they didn't decide to go that way and she's remained one of the most consistently written characters since then. A terrible person, but consistent.
I don't buy the "inevitability" narrative for a second.
The Cataclysm turn was fundamentally necessary for the continuation of the the race. I don't want, and no Forsaken player that I know wants, to play a race of self-hating suicidal sadbois that have no future and no reason to exist. They had to develop an identity as a people.
Nothing about that turn necessitates Blizzard's obsession with using the Forsaken story as firewood to fuel the Alliance's moral superiority.
And no, she has not been "consistent." The Sylvanas you fight alongside in Silverpine and "BURN EVERYTHING! ALL WILL SERVE ME IN DEATH! HAHAHAHA" are not the same person.
10/30/2018 07:14 AMPosted by
Solythn
And no, she has not been "consistent." The Sylvanas you fight alongside in Silverpine and "BURN EVERYTHING! ALL WILL SERVE ME IN DEATH! HAHAHAHA" are not the same person.
Yes they are because during that ride cutscene in Silverpine she goes on and on about how the Forsaken will survive no matter what.
10/30/2018 07:14 AMPosted by
Solythn
And no, she has not been "consistent." The Sylvanas you fight alongside in Silverpine and "BURN EVERYTHING! ALL WILL SERVE ME IN DEATH! HAHAHAHA" are not the same person.
Yes they are because during that ride cutscene in Silverpine she goes on and on about how the Forsaken will survive no matter what.
Its almost as if Sylvie wasn't going to ride down a road surrounded by Forsaken, openly talking about how they were now "
Her Bulwark against the Infinite"; and how one of her primary reasons for expanding their numbers was to enhance said bulwark. Because, as much as she may value them (and she may even care for them) ... they are still a tool meant to protect her from returning to the afterlife.
She wasn't honest with them when they were her "
arrows in her quiver", she's unlikely going to refer to them as a Bulwark either. We don't get internal dialogue from Sylvie in game, and what she says vs what she's thinking can be two very different things it turns out.
10/30/2018 11:27 AMPosted by
Droité
We don't get internal dialogue from Sylvie in game, and what she says vs what she's thinking can be two very different things it turns out.
Like yelling "For the Horde!" at Lordaeron, when she really means "Keep fighting for me!"
10/30/2018 07:14 AMPosted by
Solythn
I don't buy the "inevitability" narrative for a second.
The Cataclysm turn was fundamentally necessary for the continuation of the the race. I don't want, and no Forsaken player that I know wants, to play a race of self-hating suicidal sadbois that have no future and no reason to exist. They had to develop an identity as a people.
Nothing about that turn necessitates Blizzard's obsession with using the Forsaken story as firewood to fuel the Alliance's moral superiority.
And no, she has not been "consistent." The Sylvanas you fight alongside in Silverpine and "BURN EVERYTHING! ALL WILL SERVE ME IN DEATH! HAHAHAHA" are not the same person.
They had other choices though. They could have gone the route of having the Forsaken explore other forms of undeath seen and employed by other cultures. Frankly, I'm suprised Sylvanas never looked into any of the other stuff that's frequently encountered (Draenei constructs and soulbinding, Mogu practices, pretty much anything trolls do, etc.) There was plenty of stuff out there - bliz just never tapped into it.