Dude you “just say no” every single time anyone says anything other than “yes, worgan yousa right. Riiiiight”
3 Likes
When have I ever just said no without clarifying? I always explain why after. Check all of my posts I’ve never once done that.
I didn’t just say no. Shockingly reading passed the first word makes all the difference, I clearly referenced how it operates as a mediocre version of legions demo, which was the same thematically, and in ST played very similar in how the ramp up into burst windows are essentially both TKC builds. Then I clearly noted that current demo is simply lacking a few synergistic interactions that demo had, and should receive small changes to the spec in order to be as successful as its legion iteration.
This is how we gets specs changed for the better.
Demanding an entire spec rework is not going to happen, especially since the window for a rework is closed.
As players when we give our feedback, we need to account for what the devs will be able to reasonably do When looking at what changes we request.
A spec overhaul will not occur this far into the expansion, tuning changes, and class abilities will change slightly to improve specs, thus we need to recommend changes that will be reasonable requests, not funneling into a tangent about your inability to understand that this summoner concept was very successful for legion demonology, and mop / wod demo was absolutely nuts to properly find a balance for, and would require way to many resources to overhaul right now.
3 Likes
Shockingly you just said no and then didn’t elaborate on how what I said isn’t true. You just gave a completely separate analogy.
With the way content patches work now, there is no logical reason why we can’t get meaningful changes during an expansion. Content patches work in seasons. If they announce they’re changing a spec on the PTR, that gives people months to figure out whether they want to stick with the spec or reroll. That is plenty of time to, worst case scenario, level a completely new alt and catch them up. Gear basically resets every tier anyway so there’s no sense of permanence between patches.
They really should be focusing on classes instead of external systems like covenants and torghast. I can’t believe how much development time they wasted on things literally no one asked for. The classes are the main way in which everyone experiences content. More work should be put into classes. Every spec except for Spriest and Survival Hunter is still using their massively pruned Legion designs 3 years after the expansion.
Also I think it’s fine to ask for a rework mid-expansion because then they have time to think about it before the next expansion when they’re more likely to do it. With your same logic we won’t get any meaningful changes until next expansion so why bother asking at all. No amount of small-scale tweaking will be able to fix Demo’s current problems. As I’ve previously explained in detail, the current design concept will never work without issue, and the current spec fantasy thematically makes no sense and is a downgrade in perceived power from previous iterations.
Edit: Also you can not tell me that Legion Demo was successful. Almost every fan of old Demo completely dropped the spec in disgust. I don’t think you remember having to spam Demonic Empowerment after nearly every single summon ability. The entire spec was based around ramping and funneling everything into Thal’Kael’s Consumption. The current iteration has the exact same design flaw with Demonic Tyrant which is even worse since all of the power is being put into an NPC with horrible AI instead of just a damage ability. Putting a very large majority of your power into one single ability that’s extremely easy to counter in any PvP scenario does not work. (Demo only worked in PvP in Legion due to the Fel Lord pvp talent being completely broken. Once that was nerfed no one saw Demo again.)
1 Like
Homes you’ve literally rejected the notion to give the playstyles of mop demo back exactly as it was only under the umbrella of DH3rd spec because “it’s not warlock” despite again the concept being a note for note rework of the playstyles.
Yes you totally and completely “just say no”. You are the king of just saying no. You just want exactly what you want, no compromise, no tweaks, no anything, just your own little selfish desire.
And as I pointed out a while ago and you agreed you only want it because you enjoyed it and you could care less about those that enjoy demo as it stands. So double them selfish points up boyo.
1 Like
If you read all of my posts you would have seen I gave a compromise for a rework that wasn’t MoP/WoD Demo. I quoted it previously in this exact thread. Here I’ll quote it again since I guess you’re only seeing what fits your narrative of me “just saying no”.
Edit: I think you’re forgetting the only reason Demo was reworked in the first place was for a completely unjustifiable reason. Swept out from under everyone who played the spec. Demo would not work on Demon Hunters. They can’t even summon Demons and if they made it so they could then that rips one of the major class fantasies from Warlocks. And before you try to say that Demo stole Meta from demon hunters, it didn’t. The ability could simply just have a different name and no one would see the resemblance. They don’t look or function within the spec similarly whatsoever. The only thing that’s similar is that when you activate it, it changes a few abilities. Plenty of specs have mechanics that do that. In the case of DH though, it doesn’t even change anything functional about the abilities, they just do more damage.
1 Like
You aren’t asking for meaningful changes, you want a spec overhaul.
They can’t just copy paste the spec into PTR, they need to actually put a ton of resources in designing and balancing it.
Correct.
A lot of people asked for solo content. Solo content was delivered.
They literally just gave us a ton of our old spells back.
No, it’s fine to ask At the end of the final tier, when all sorts of class changes are being made in the background, thus resources are already there devoted to it, ontop of this your basically telling them to give up on the spec until next expansion and to leave it as is until next expacs overhaul. That’s a terrible mentality.
Small changes can be very meaningful, a change here, a change there, makes all the difference if it’s the right change. That’s what you just aren’t getting.
By old demo you mean knockoff destruction? Right? Yeah played it, not a fan, wasn’t a fan of wotlk demo either, Cata pet twisting on the other hand was great. Mop demo was great for all of 5
Minutes.
Literally pet timer / energy change to prevent their damage drop off when not attacking and something like Decimation affecting demonbolt would absolutely have massive impact on the specs rotation, ramp up, and synergize in a way making it extremely useful in many encounters, while feeling great to use.
That’s two small changes that would improve demo by miles, and their are other small changes that could added aswell to further this.
Common mistake I see people make, always referring to pre high AP weapons.
Look at antorus ST rotation, you know what you didn’t do? Use Empower after ever summon, why? Because it was your filler, acting as a 1-2 punch filler with SBolt.
That spell and it’s trait causing it to deal damage, and chance at a shard, literally gave us a 1-2 punch filler rotation that worked like butter, was fast paced, and
Allow us to cause damage while out of range, ontop of removing our main gripe.
A single trait, dramatically improved that spec, and made demo essentially god tier in both gameplay and damage.
Which is literally fixed by either A making it run off energy, or B stop the despawn timer while it’s unable to hit the target.
Same can be applied to all of our demons, which would dramatically improve their overall uptime, and our ability to handle a variety of mechanics.
Demo worked in pvp in legion because we were busted tanky, and our pets could solo people, ontop of us literally 1 shotting players until massive pvp TKC nerfs rolled in.
2 Likes
I’d rather fight for more than settle for less. You’re trying to put a band-aid on a gash. No amount of small changes will fix the spec. It will only make it slightly less worse. Giving pets energy won’t change the fact that pets can never be 100% reliable. It won’t change the fact that someone can just CC you, then CC any pets you finally summon once you can cast, effectively making you useless by just juggling DRs. I will not settle for anything less than a completely functioning spec. Demo should not still have these same problems. This is ridiculous. We shouldn’t have to wait til next expansion for Demo to be fixed. They did that to Enhance Shaman in BfA and it was actually miserable. I would honestly be fine if we kept this design philosophy if they at least tried. They actually don’t even care. They haven’t said ANYTHING regarding Demo. The last time they actually cared about Warlocks as a whole was in MoP. Xelnath actually communicated with us and made changes accordingly. Sure they tried with the Legion design, but they haven’t meaningfully iterated on it since. It still feels like Legion except you’re missing like 3 abilities. Also the Shadowlands unpruning was a joke. We got curses back lmao. The only class that got something back that actually impacted their rotation was priests with SWD.
Also I can’t believe you just called old Demo a Destro clone. Please elaborate on why you believe that because that actually makes 0 sense. The connection between current Demo and Affliction is WAY stronger than Demo and Destro in MoP. The only thing that was similar is Chaos Bolt hit hard and so did Demonbolt and Soulfire? That’s basically it. You played around those abilities completely differently though, especially since Soulfire was proc based and Demonbolt required setup.
1 Like
I’m willing to give credit where it’s due. Small though it may be. It’s good to see you are at least willing to entertain the notion of another total overhaul to the spec even if it’s not the specific one you want.
That’s progress.
And tbh I’m not very against the idea of old demo back, I loved it. I’m not against the idea of a demo spec that works as you put forward.
I am against the rather silly notion that demo cannot be fixed with targeted changes. It’s a strong structure to a spec that needs help. Starting over is an option but trying to pitch it as the only option is disingenuous at best.
So here is my stance.
Let’s assume we get a blizzard dev to respond one day to us all and listen.
Do you think we have better odds of getting work accomplished by pitching total overhauls at them or by suggesting small modifications? If you think the former then I cannot help you. Blizzard always wants to repair before restart and that’s understandable. Lots of money and time go into overhauls.
Second question. Do you honestly think they’d get it right the first go-round? Because historically they don’t. Historically it takes at least a few expansions to get it right
Together these things make me think any effort that is more than just fun hypothetical (nothing wrong with that. All good fun) and entertains to actually produce something worthwhile. My best bet is to funnel efforts into repair work on the spec. And frankly not a massive amount needs to be done to make demo perfectly workable for pve at least. Pvp I’d need to sit down with Epicburn or something and openly talk back and forth with people that know current demo pvp and how we can alter without breaking the spec.
3 Likes
Your trying to abandon a spec instead of looking at how to make it better, which there are a variety of ways to make current demo just as good as late Legion demo, which was nothing short of fantastic.
I’m trying to Stitch a gash, your trying to leave it open and opt for the surgery later down the linen when it gets infected.
If you played this spec at even a remotely competent level now and in legion you would know that statement is factually incorrect.
That’s what aura buffs do.
We aren’t asking for aura buffs.
Changing to energy / how the timers count down, as I explained, would literally solve that problem.
Which is why a complete overhaul is an idiotic idea when the spec doesn’t need a restart from scratch, and can be fixed with like 2 Or 3 Minor targeted changes.
Correct.
So stop advocating for changes that won’t be able to be implemented until next expansion, and instead think logically.
Why? Because that is where your nostalgia for the spec is? I can sit here and be nostalgic for Cata iteration of demo, but I’m not going to tell the devs to overhaul the spec back to cata, despite it being superior to Mop and wods.
Which is literally why we are saying to make those targeted changes to fill in that gap.
End of legion demo was amazing, because it had its entire toolkit and later traits synergize well.
Current demo is very capable of reaching that tier of gameplay if we give feedback on the specific problems, with solutions targeted to counter them. not crying asking for a complete rework that isn’t going to happen for years.
To be clear, Demonology did Infact exist prior to MoP. Those of us who were around back then don’t refer to mop as “old demo” because it’s not.
3 Likes
I want you to go play literally any other class, then come back and tell me Demo feels almost complete. It’s not even close. Every time I play current Demo it feels like I’m alpha testing. Even if you for some reason disagree about that, the design philosophy still makes no sense. Why are we summoning hordes of Imps and dogs, aka probably the weakest demons we could possibly summon. We’re supposed to be Demonologists. We should be focusing on summoning bigger demons and empowering them, not just summoning a bunch of insignificant minions and forgetting about them the second they’re summoned. Why is there no actual interaction? I think the spec could use a rework even if you don’t account for how it plays currently. The design itself just doesn’t make sense and portrays Demo as way weaker than it should be. Spec fantasy is a big part of why some people play a spec. And like I’ve said plenty of times before, Unholy DK already fulfills the fantasy of summoning a bunch of minions to attack your enemies. Demo should strive to be more unique. It just feels like a DoT spec the way demons function right now and that’s inarguable. Warlock already has a DoT spec. I genuinely don’t understand how you can say the current iteration is fine in any meaningful capacity.
3 Likes
I main Ele for M prog, and demo feels almost complete.
Ofcourse it’s close, it just has kinks that need addressed, which is why many of us specifically target those problems.
Why because you don’t like the spec? That’s not how this works, disliking how a spec works doesn’t somehow make it absolute alpha status. We are currently in the post release hiccups, which demo tends to have frequently.
Yes we are demonologists, not some Eredar lord.
There is nothing insignificant about our minions, we have the capabilities of an imp mother, have dogs that can carve everything near them, vilefiend which are very high tier demons from argus, multiple felguards, and a tyrant, which are basically powerhouses of the legion.
I never said it was fine. I said it wasn’t a lost cause.
3 Likes
I can and do tell you its nearly complete. But as you point out this is a disagreement on philosophy so let’s let’s both tuck it aside and leave it shall we?
Horses of lesser demons… You got a point to an extent. But that’s mostly visual. Imps are given so we have ranged troops instead of melee that are less reactive to fight movement. Personally I’d make Hand just summon demons off a list similar to ID or NP, restrict it to ranged troops or just give us a more major demon running on energy and hand only replenishes that energy. Both solutions don’t change gameplay much but present a better visual frame. I agree we shouldn’t be summoning imps on imps on imps. But you give me imps and eyes and observers and mo’arg and a few others in a stew and I personally think that’s sufficient.
“We should be focusing on summoning bigger demons and empowering them” is also highly subjective personal. We should be focused on summoning demons…from there we can branch into many ways and format and that may actually be a path forward. Letting talents dictate if we summon 2-4 bigger guys or a whole slew and each function for different roles. Imp mother spec for m+ maybe with bigger badder resulting in a more raid oriented spec.
And much like Rev I didn’t say it was fine. I said and have said so often that people are probably annoyed that it’s mediocre right now with solid structure.
The primary actual mechanic point you bring up(because I don’t honestly take the visual problem that seriously as it’s all surface level) is the ramp up and pet ai.
Pet ai needs work, no question. In with ya. But if we fix that that works for both overhaul and repair and if we don’t both sides will still suffer. That’s not an argument to overhaul the spec.
Ramp up? It’s fine to an extent. Many classes have ramp and that does fit and work quite well in wow. The problem is that we never get a break. Other classes often have to setup for st or aoe or a burst phase. We ramp for every single thing we do. But this isn’t terrible hard to fix really so we should not treat it like it’s an insurmountable mountain.
Baseline BSB to snap aoe dps as well as insert in-between implosion cycle to make it less of a janky dps profile and now our ramp is mostly in ST and we can even chop that down as well a lot by making all advanced summons instant. Only shadowbolt and hand should imo be hardcast. Still some ramp but much less. With talent tree work this can be cut even further.
3 Likes
Honestly demonhunters and warlocks both have metamorphosis according to lore guldan and even our follower in legion had it. The only reason it was removed because blizzard dug a huge hole and wanted to get rid spells that share similar outcomes. The only thing metamorphosis shared with demon hunters was that it changed forms and it increased damage. The playstyle was completely different because demonology was a caster and demonhunters were melee. Its no different that a pally and priest healing spells because both spells still had one outcome that heals the targets. The blizzard developers just made it difficult for classes that had spells prior to Legion to excel and broke all of the fixes that the previous developers spent time fixing. It was a slap in the face.
So yes metamorphosis can come back even as a talent if the developers decide to remove the demon specific talent for felguards (which honestly is being a lazy as a developer) and place it in the talent tree in their place. It only falls in the developers hands to follow lore. Because the community and feedback given to return it to the game by players does not matter. They always use the excuse that the forums is just a small player base. Why have something to give feedback if you will just criticize the player base for attempting to speak their mind and tell you you made a bad decision.
2 Likes
I’d love to see a form of metamorphosis that doesn’t look the same as the DH one. It could be a visual upgrade like the phase of the Gul’dan fight where he gets the power from Kil’jaeden, he doesn’t transform into a demon.
The ability could be a talent, a DPS cooldown that changes other abilities (like the current shadow priest void eruption) and makes your attacks summon demons, baking in the nether portal concept.
Why because you don’t like the spec? That’s not how this works, disliking how a spec works doesn’t somehow make it absolute alpha status.
We are currently in the post release hiccups, which demo tends to have frequently.
Huh, its almost like Demo actually has the fundamental design problems Woganikiz talks about, which may be the cause of the constant “hiccups” the spec has when transitioning to new content.
Yes we are demonologists, not some Eredar lord.
Too bad, being an eredar lord sounds like it would be cool and a good inspiration for the spec. But hey uh being an imp mother and puppy wrangler is still…well it sucks actually.
There is nothing insignificant about our minions, we have the capabilities of an imp mother, have dogs that can carve everything near them, vilefiend which are very high tier demons from argus, multiple felguards, and a tyrant, which are basically powerhouses of the legion.
I just want to point out that many of the examples you give of modern demos cool factor were actually a part of the Mists iteration of Demo in some way, and done better there to boot. MoP/Wod demo summoned imps as ancillary part of the specs playstyle. It also had a felguard and could grimoire for a second pet for additional burst/utility. It could also talent into summoning greater demons. Managing demons was a part of what made Demo unique but not the only thing.
And in MoP/WoD those things given an appropriate amount of space on the periphery of the specs identity because someone realized that making imp summoning the core identity of the spec would be an idiotic disaster and brutally unfulfilling to play.
4 Likes
Revlol won’t listen, he’s the class designer.
I played Demo in Vanilla, TBC and Wrath and when I tried Retail it felt as clunky, unpolished and half-hearted as Vanilla Demo. Even then Vanilla demo if your succy could stay alive was decent and could put out some dps.
This retail version seems like it has aspects from every xpac but no cohesion. Summoning an army of imps is cool but that should be a talent all onto itself. Demo should be open. Do you want a single hardcore pet like felguard/succy? Or do you want an army of imps and temp summons?
It seems like they only care about demon hunter now.
3 Likes
If that’s the case we r SCREWED. Lol
He isn’t, tho. Blizz has max 3 class devs for all classes.
1 Like
Demo doesn’t need a total rework just some fixes.
1)Demon Armor baseline.
2)Tyrant instant.
3) Dreadstalkers instant baseline.
4) Demonic Calling talent changed to reduce Dreadstalker cool down by 5 seconds and reduce shard cost by 2.
5) Master Summoner talent changed, Buff Corruption and make it instant for pvp maybe.
6) Health Funnel changed from a channeled spell to a dot