Good Morning,
Raided last night and have been reading up and practicing Demo.
It felt good but even on fights that seemed easy such as Vectis my parses were shocking.
.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dZQhCVMBzyW9TJYt/
Anyone got time to have a look please?
Just put the www onto the link and past it in your browser.
Thanks in advance.
Well I do not know if I have an opinion on the matter because I do not really classify myself as a “mythic” raider. But, I’m bored so I will give you my input. Also, in the past when I have posted in forums trying to tell people how to play their class I usually get flamed horribly. So, if past experiences reflect future results you will get a crap ton of responses just so people can tell me how wrong I am.
Your Damage Doesn’t look bad but I was getting similar numbers when I was testing out demonology about a week ago with about 10 ilvls less than you.
First thing I would point out is on vectis you were using BB. I have done mythic vectis, even though I am not necessarily a mythic raider, and from what I remember you only get one add in that fight. Based on my testing with BB it is a DMG loss unless you are stacking adds. I don’t know an exact number of adds I would say 3 or more. The dmg loss is because of the shards you are wasting casting the spell. when I tested it on a punching bag Demonic Str and BB did about the same dmg single target. BB is used every 30 seconds. But, in a single target encounter with Sacrificed souls that is 2 more imps you could have out and single target you get the same dmg out of Demonic Strength.
Second thing I noticed is you do not have Baleful invocation. Sacrificed souls took a nerf with patch 8.1. However, if you have baleful invocation you can summon more imps to compensate for that loss. Without the talent the numbers don’t cancel each other out. So, it is almost a must.
Also, grimoire: felguard imo is more of a mythic + talent. It’s a 2 minute CD but offers a large AOE cleave and a stun. But, single target with Sacrificed souls inner demons is a little more dmg and I have done sims that reflect that. I don’t know if raidbots has been updated since the patch. But, I simmed my character from about 20 different directions one night and single target inner demons and sacrificed souls gives a little more dmg. But, the real secret of demonolgy is Timing. a number of the builds I came up with all seem to do about the same dmg over all. Sacrificed souls and Inner demons giving the best sustained dmg. But, you really have to see the dmg as a graph where Nether portal is going to give you the most Upfront dmg tapering off but putting the bulk of the dmg on pull and has to be sinked up with Lust. Where as Demonic consumption gives you slightly more burst every 1:30 but not as intense as nether portal. But, again the dmg tapers off quickly. Where as sacrificed souls gives you more sustained dmg through out the whole encounter.
So on fights like zul Nether portal would prolly be nice because you can get all that dmg upfront to push him so there are not that many stacks in the second phase. At least, that is the theory of nether portal. Pulling it off is the tricky part. You almost have to sink it up with bloodlust or it is a wash and that is a tricky thing to do unless the whole raid is perfectly in sink. When I have tried to pull it off on a practice dummy with out lust it does about the same dmg as sacrificed souls and not as much sustained dmg. However, if you can get the miracle pull down and you can sink it up with lust. You can stack a TON of demons in the Nether portal window and extend them with DT and stack dmg ontop of dmg ontop of dmg. If you are willing to work the bugs out of the rotation and get it perfect. Like I said I am not a “mythic” raider so I tried for about 15 to 20 minutes and couldn’t pull it off perfect and got bored.
Just running it through the wow-analyzer. From there it says you could use dogs and bb more. The downtime was an area noted.
Have you thrown the wcl link into the analyzer before? wowanalyzer add the dot com.
BB is significantly better on Vectis because you literally get an add roughly every 30s which is the CD of BB. You can just look at this:
.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#boss=2134&class=Warlock&spec=Demonology
BB is crazy good on Vectis, like almost a must.
Also Nether Portal is the play on every boss right now. Sacrificed Souls is still good, Nether Portal is just better though and it’s pretty simple to use.
Blythyie does have 1 Baleful Invocation, he has an Archive, Baleful, and Rezan’s Fury.
Grimoire: Felguard is a must on every single fight so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#class=Warlock&spec=Demonology
If you just look at that the go to talent in that row on every single fight is Grimoire: Felguard.
Only just played Demo for the first time last night so I can just look at the basic things. I definitely didn’t play perfectly last night lol. Chucklebolt is probably who you want to look at these logs.
General things first. BB vs. Demonic Strength, play whatever sims the highest. Only on like 2 fights one or the other is significantly better than the other. I also say play Nether Portal, it’s really good now and really simple to use. Doom can be really good too.
.lockonestopshop.com/#!/Demonology/Rotation
^Nether Portal opener
Mother:
Like you got 3 casts off for 403k DMG, I got 2 casts for 588k DMG. Only difference was I extended both of mine. It would’ve pushed your 3rd Tyrant back to like 4 minutes probably but you still would’ve gotten 3. I don’t know the time you guys crossed to 3rd room and don’t want to check and see. But maybe just save your 2nd Felguard for that 3rd Tyrant. Who knows, I could be wrong but that might have been the play, it’s what I always do from now on. Use CDs in 1st room then don’t use them again until I am safely in the 3rd room.
Zek’Voz:
No orb lol. What a stupid boss.
“Hey, you wanna parse? too bad, you don’t get an orb today. HA, silly hooman.”
I used Demonic Strength on this fight, Demonic Strength sims higher for me on ST. Other lock in my guild playing Demo used BB, we came in 1st and 2nd separated by like 100 DPS so I don’t think it matters. But most warlocks use Demonic Strength on Zek’Voz, so idk. Maybe try Demonic Strength next time, I personally recommend it, absolutely crushes the adds.
You only used Implosion twice for 160k DMG, I used it 6 times for 297k DMG, this Chinese guy used it 7 times for 918k DMG…
.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8xpFvnWrMZXYaz1c#fight=124&type=damage-done&translate=true&source=406
So yeah, we both need to use Implosion more and better lol. It looks like your adds lived a decent length of time too so i’d just smash the hell out of them with HoG and Implosion.
My first Demo kill on Fetid was beyond scuffed so I’m not gonna talk here. Had to kill little eggs and I scuffed my CDs really bad and hindsight 20/20 I will play BB next time. I’ll come back next year and get a good Demo parse on Fetid.
Zul is a meme boss, doesn’t matter anymore and you played Destro on Mythrax. I think you did good, first time playing a different spec in a raid there’s always a learning curve.
When I viewed his profile he had 2 archives and 1 Rezan’s
When I go to a Practice dummy and actually use it. Sacrificed souls does better and hit about the same burst. I was trying to explain that it would seem in my experimentation getting the best numbers out of Nether Portal is tricky. This type of argument is actually why I don’t classify myself as a “Mythic” raider. If I was in a Hardcore guild they would tell me I sucked because everyone else is using nether portal. But, as far as I can tell if you don’t do it right it doesn’t matter. Same dmg.
Based on personal sims I ran inner demons and Sacrificed souls did more dmg. Again, this is why I don’t classify myself as a “mythic” raider. I don’t really care how those people play unless I can recreate the numbers on my side of the fence and in all the sims I ran inner demons and Sacrificed souls did better. Not, that those people are wrong. I’m sure they are using that set up for a reason. But, yea in actual practice I don’t see any improvement. So, I would only use Grimoire: felguard if the Stun was useful or you had an add heavy fight with alot of cleave. Like Zekvoz or Zul.
Doesn’t matter what his profile says, he linked logs and in the logs he was using 1 Baleful, 1 Rezan’s, and 1 Archive. He could’ve logged out in a different gear setup or changed a trait back, etc.
Well, then why not do everything in your power to do it right? I hadn’t ever used Nether Portal or BB or Baleful or any of that until last night. I went on LOSS and read how to use Nether Portal, went in and did pretty decent last night. You’re never going to learn how to use something if you just try it once or twice and say “I can’t replicate the results or use it properly every time so I’ll settle for X.”
When is the last time you ran your sims?
I simmed Blythyie and changed his helm trait to Baleful. Nether Portal becomes significantly better with 1 Baleful than none.
Sacrificed Souls:
.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a2u3wJyZDJUsviuNd5jTA3
Nether Portal:
.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tbtxWAAZwixTpQRSrE8LGp
Then Inner Demons vs. Grimoire: Felguard:
.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tEmHF9usKPJKtuE7P8qhnR
.raidbots.com/simbot/report/swkJvAwGqte7rThURehUVN
If you can’t replicate the results of other people that’s fine. But Blythyie is trying to to improve his DPS and his parses, so he is trying to recreate the results of others. Which requires playing the best builds and figuring out what others are doing, etc.
Well, yea I don’t know what to say about that I suppose I could look into it more. I’m sure there is a trick that makes it better. But, I just did a real world test on a raiding dummy and with sacrificed souls and inner demons with demonic strength. I would burst 16.5k without raid buffs and with out reorigination array and with out lust. I did a run with Nether portal, BB and Grimoire: felguard and on that run I used Drums. I did not have a shaman handy. My burst on that pull was only 15 k. Both runs I did for 5 minutes and both runs did about the same amount of dmg. In the realm of error. With in a few percent of one another. The difference Nether portal build had lust and Sacrificed souls did not.
I did everything I could think of on the nether portal build to maximize the number of demons I got from it. I stacked up 5 shards. I had 2 stacks of demonic core. I used lust. I tied nether portal with a trinket that had as much haste on it as I have in my bank. after all my demons were summoned and I still had a little time on the clock before nether portal faded I used one cast of shadow bolt and then one hand of guldan. Then I popped DT and spammed two more hand of guldans. It was literally as perfect as I could think of the pull could possibly be. In a raid I doubt I would have it as perfect. Unless I was the one that called lust. Because I might not get all the procs I needed. My trinket might not be up. All the little RNG aspects might not be there and I still only pulled 15k burst and did about the same as Sacrificed souls and inner demons and the sacrificed souls build is really easy. Less buttons and I can recreated the results every time and it is not as dependent on lust as the nether portal build.
So, I mean Blythyie can do what he wants and so can you. If I ever get in a raid group that really needs me to be super pro I might just try harder. But, yea even then how much work am I supposed to put in a rotation. I have honestly spent more time then I would like as it is.
I know I shouldn’t double post. But, I did more experimentation with Nether portal today and at this point I can conclude that it just sucks. In every situation I can come up with it just sucks. I kind of want one of the hard raiders in the world to explain to me why people use it. Because, when I test it…it just sucks. No matter how I play out the summoning and no matter what situation I put it in…it is just second best to sacrificed souls. I thought at one point maybe it was better in a Cleave situation…maybe one of the demons you summon does some sort of AOE. But, none of them do and in every configuration. Sacrificed souls did better. all be it by a small margin.
How fast are your kill times? Are you playing with NP correctly? Do you have Baleful invo? those 3 factors make a huge difference. The faster kill times the better NP becomes. Just seems to me like you aren’t playing with NP properly
I would like someone to explain to me how it is done then. Because, I looked on Lockonestopshop and wrote down there exact opener sequence and Sacrificed souls still did better. I mean if I understand the concept correctly. The idea is to just spend as many shards as possible in the nether portal window and then extend with demonic tyrant. I did the LOSS sequence and it didn’t improve the score on a practice dummy and I made up about 3 or 4 different opening sequences of my own and it didn’t improve the score. Maybe i’m just super pro at sacrificed souls. Anyhow, it would seem to me at this point that either nether portal sucks or it is some complicated to pull off correctly that you almost need a script to do it correctly. Maybe that is what some of the raiders that use it do, idk. I’m sure they would be offended by the implication.
The only advantage I can come up with for nether portal is it is not effected by the number of imps you have out. So, if you were going to use implosion ALOT it would probably be the better choice. Because, it does about the same DMG as sacrificed souls but you do not need to stack imps…you can just implosion, implosion, implosion.
Anyway, I’m going to stop posting on this thread because I feel that I have hijacked someone else’s thread at this point. Blythyie honestly wants to improve his score and I don’t think my nether portals argument is helping him do that.
Hello,
Thanks for the input,
In terms of Netherportal im using it each time I have 3 shards and thats really about it. Am i missing somthing?
Proper implosion usage on Vectis will also make a world of difference in your parses as well.
LOSS has a really good Nether Portal guide.
/lockonestopshop.com/#!/Demonology/Rotation
That’s what I went off of when I played it this week.
I just tried to link you the icy veins guide but for some reason Blizzard won’t allow me to include links in my post…
The guide is written by one of the Warlock discord guys. It is up to date with 8.1.
Also join the lock discord if you haven’t.
I know I said I wasn’t going to post to this thread anymore. But, yea. I have to correct myself again and I think this could help Blythyie. I can now get over 19k (with out buffs) burst with nether portal. but you have to do it exactly how Icy veins says. Not how lockonestopshop says. Lock one stop shop has the rotation having a shadowbolt between each cast. Do it exactly how icy veins says. It is all about timing. I could go into more details but I have spent the last week hitting a practice dummy so I don’t want to explain everything I have learned. But yea, do it exactly how icy says and you can get some really good numbers. I assume those numbers would only go up with bloodlust as long as you get the timing right.
I assume there are more secrets to doing nether portal perfect. Because,I was in an LFR with another demolock ( I was only in LFR to practice) and that player was getting Huge numbers and his gear was not much better than mine and he/she was running netherportal.
So, now that I can get the numbers I will prolly run nether portal until they nerf it.
You can try wowanalyzer and have it check out your parses. Below is its analysis of your vectis kill
https://www.wowanalyzer.com/report/dZQhCVMBzyW9TJYt/30-Mythic+Vectis+-+Kill+(5:20)/2-Blythyie
It catches some obvious stuff and sometimes not so obvious stuff. It doesn’t take into account fight mechanics that force you to run around or wait instead of attacking.
You did read this part of Icy Veins right?
“Please keep in mind this rotation is at 0% Haste, and the more Haste you get, the more 1-shard Hand of Gul’dans you can fit in.”
Which is where the LOSS 1 SB between each cast comes in. Icy Veins assumes 0% Haste and LOSS does not, it’s not a difference in rotation. The only difference in the rotation is in the order of Felguard, Vilefiend, and Dreadstalkers which makes no difference the order you cast them in. All 3 will get extended and it’s the same amount of shards used every time.
Well I’ll tell you a little of what I have found ( keeping in mind I may be wrong). I have spent a fairly large amount of time at the Practice dummy to figure this stuff out; so , I kind of want people to respect that. But, the big secret seems to be Demon uptime. As far as I can tell all demons you spawn with nether portal has a 15 second uptime or really close to that. Summon dreadstalkers only has a 12 second uptime. Summon vilefiend and Grimoire:felguard has a 15 second uptime. Nether portal portal is up for 15 seconds and it takes 2 seconds without haste to summon your demonic tyrant. So, the problem I was having with my rotation is I would wait until nether portal would fade to cast demonic tyrant. The problem is 15 seconds plus 2 seconds is 17 seconds. So, my vilefiend had despawned and a few of the demons summoned by nether portal had despawned. So, you have to find the sweet spot with your haste level and make sure you tyrant is out before any of them despawn. Summon dreadstalkers should be toward the end of the list. When I did the Icy veins rotation exactly as written all my Major demons would get the extention. Then I had a little bit of time to spam a couple hand of gul’dans.
This has led me to a number of assumptions, which I have not yet concluded definitively. But, the main one is Nether portal is only a damage increase if you pair it with Demonic Tyrant. When I was screwing up the rotation trying to maximize my nether portal window, the dmg was always lower then sacrificed souls. Because, I did not get an extention on all of my major demons. So, because of that I can conclude that if I am not extending my demons summoned by nether portal it is not a dmg gain over sacrificed souls.
So, that means IF you want to be a super pro Mythic raider and not just a LFR pugger you are going to have to analyze the encounter and decided when you can use abilites and when you can not.
Which brings me to another point. In order to maximize your nether portal window. You have to spend 15 seconds summoning demons. But, I did not hit my peak DPS numbers until about 5 seconds after nether portal had faded and then the burst window carries over for about 20 seconds after that. So, that means you need about a 40 to 45 second window to maximize the dmg from nether portal. If the encounter allows that and you don’t need to save burst for some reason. You are golden. But, do keep in mind that I have not conclusively determined this.
In situations when you can not just faceroll the boss for 40 seconds sacrificed souls still might be better. But, I have found that in the heat of combat it is difficult to manage imp uptime. Which is how sacrificed souls works. If you can not effectively stack imps then your dmg is going to be better with nether portal no matter how you roll the dice. Demonic consumption does have a place. But, when I use it my sustained damage is not good. But, it gives a very powerful burst every 1 min 30 secs. The burst window is faster and higher then nether portal burst window. But, does not last as long and does not provide the same over all dmg. But, if you were in an encounter when you had to burst really hard every 1 min 30 seconds and there might even be a bit of down time between burst windows. demonic consumption might be a good choice.
But, other than that each build has its own hang ups. Sacrificed souls relies on your ability to stack imps. Weak auras works well for that. Demonic Consumption is similar but works a little different where you are looking at IMP energy instead of the total number of imps. Which is more difficult to calculate with weak auras that I know of. Nether Portal on the other hand seems to rely on Pairing it with demonic tyrant and making sure as many demons get the extension as possible and all of you primary demons get the extension.
In order to get this correct you will have to spend some time on a practice dummy. Because your haste levels will differ from other people.
Have a Merry Christmas
with netherportal up and active you are trying to spend as many HOGs as possible in that window. NP does not take into account the amount of shards spent with HOG, but the number of times you actually spend shards. If you’re talking about going into your NP rotation you wanna start at 5 to get all your 1shard demons out as rapidly as possible, until 0 shards then tyrant and double HOG then comes the 1SB -> 1hog spam.
Motoko’s guide on icy veins is what I studied before heading into M as demo