Me after reading this thread:
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Why would you do that to yourself?
This thread just makes me love MSV even more.
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im actually a vulpera all my friends are horde now so no point in staying on the L faction 
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Awww, but yay more foxies!
It doesn’t, though.
You seem to have difficulty separating the concept of an argument to a person’s identity.
To you, if a person is of bad character, their arguments are automatically wrong. That isn’t how things work.
For example, Preach says he wishes Survival were still ranged. You can dismiss his take as bad because he exploited at some point, but what about when Liquid Max comes out and says the same thing? Or Izen Hart? or Bellular? Yes all of them have come out and criticised the concept of a melee Hunter. Are they all just bad people for some reason or another?
I don’t think many would disagree that a healthy spec would be one that has a sizeable regular following and a consistent and coherent design, neither of which are true for Survival.
Like I said, this would be ideal. Not even trying to be insulting. BM and MM are specs that build on the core foundation of a WoW Hunter, which features ranged weapons as the core part. Ranged SV once did as well. If you didn’t like any of those 3 specs that means you didn’t like the class and the reason you like SV so much is because it isn’t built as a Hunter spec. We should not be designing Hunter specs for people who don’t like Hunters.
Well it’s not like very many people from other classes even showed up to main Survival given that not many people showed up period, so it really wouldn’t affect a lot of people in any case.
We don’t have any surveys for this so I’m just highlighting what I’ve seen around forums. While there are die-hards like you who say melee is a critical part of their enjoyment, there are also Hunters who tolerate Survival and play it despite being melee. Since rerolling is a lot more commitment than respeccing it’s safe to assume at least a sizeable part of SV’s current playerbase fits into that camp.
I’m not saying they don’t matter: I’m saying they don’t matter more than ranged SV mains, so the class should not be designed as if they do matter more.
It’s been in a state of flux since then. They evidently aren’t very happy with how it’s turning out if they keep having to reinvent it including various compromises towards the ranged side of Hunters. Did you know Legion SV had no ranged attacks beyond a couple talents (grenades and throwing axes)? Now it literally has access to more ranged weapon abilities than melee weapon abilities. Even as they try to keep it melee they can’t avoid the influence of the baseline ranged foundation of Hunters.
They’ve already compromised. It’s just not good enough, and if they don’t want to take it to the next level they can be content with wasting even more time and effort reinventing an unpopular concept every couple of years.
Thought experiment: let’s say the take the current SV and they replace the melee abilities with ranged equivalents. Raptor Strike, Mongoose Bite, Carve, Butchery, Muzzle, and Fury of the Eagle are replaced with ranged equivalents and Coordinated Assault and Spearhead lose their charge component. Let’s just say it keeps Harpoon for utility purposes and it loses Aspect of the Eagle because it no longer needs it. It uses a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon. Otherwise every other choice and interaction stays the same.
It’s the same gameplay from a rotation perspective. It’s literally the same gameplay if you’re up in front of the enemy. It just uses a ranged weapon instead and you can now do full damage up to 40 yards away.
Is it a better or worse spec? Does it become more or less popular? How much of SV’s current playerbase stays around and how much of them quit?
I know you would quit but I’m interested to see how you think the spec would fare after that.
It’s not just Wrath Classic. It was popular for most of the WotLK-WoD stretch.
Huh, so both sides of the argument would have to accept shortcomings but otherwise keep most of what they want? Almost sounds like a compromise or something.
Yes it wouldn’t be ideal for someone like me. If I had absolute power there would not be any melee Hunter at all because I see it as unnecessary. MoP is commonly cited as Hunter’s best expansion and that was one where we had no melee weapon dependence whatsoever. However, I understand a small niche of people like melee Hunters so I see compromise as acceptable. If part of the BM tree were a melee path I would be fine with that so long as most of BM as it is remains preserved. I would never take the melee talents but I would be fine with them being there. What I’m not fine with is an entire 3rd of the class, one that was already occupied, be dedicated to such a niche concept.
The lead developer literally called it a niche spec.
… the option they took is the one that screwed the maximum number of people over. You just don’t see it that way because you’re part of the niche that got preferential treatment.
No, it is overdone. That specific way of approaching melee combat is already covered by at least 5 specs. Ranged weapon usage is very unique; only Hunters do it, and one of those specs (BM) already has little focus on the ranged weaponry. It makes zero sense to take away from that limited pool of ranged weapon specs to add to an already crowded pool of physical melee.
What’s that got to do with anything? Traps come with the Hunter baseline.
Butchery is just a generic physical melee option. Nothing about it speaks “Hunter”.
That’s one of the problems with melee SV. For all this talk about the melee aspect being so critical, the melee parts of the spec are the most generic and boring parts. It’s just two abilities: your single target spender (Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite) and your AoE CDR/filler (Carve/Butchery). Most of the aesthetic flair and uniqueness comes from things like Wildfire Bomb and the pets, which notably aren’t reliant (or worse: outright conflicting) with being melee.
I think even you understand at some level what a ridiculous stretch this is.
You didn’t do it personally, but you do appreciate that it happened.
As for Blizzard: it’s utter nonsense to cry “live and let live” and say we get worked up over nothing when we lost our favourite spec.
Man there must be some weird bug then where I have all these achievements from 2008 including some that you can’t get any more after WotLK.
Doesn’t make a difference. It’s a unique BM thing. It should not belong to all specs.
And let’s be honest: it’s usually not MM Hunters asking for this.
Do you see big arguments like these popping up for other specs?
Not arguments over tuning: arguments over the core design and existence of the spec.
Special status? All I’m saying is that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You’re the one saying the opposite; that the few should be prioritised.
Did you know Myspace is still running and has users?
It’s the slimmest of fractions of a percentage of what it once was, but some people honestly still use it.
Are we forbidden to use the word “abandoned” to describe MySpace?
We’ve already been over this. No one is seriously saying that there are 0 Survival Hunters. That’s a strawman. What we are saying is that Survival is very unpopular.
What is the time range for that data? As in, what dates are we talking about?
I know the answer already. I just want to see what you think it is.
But most of the time ranged SV wasn’t “poor performance” and therefore its representation was fine, as opposed to melee SV which is lacking in representation even in good performance.
Most specs do not need best-in-the-game damage to achieve middle-of-the-pack representation. Ranged SV didn’t. Even during ICC back then it saw decent representation. I think it will be less so in WotLK Classic because people are a lot more performance-minded now than they were back then, but it also won’t be at abandonment status like melee SV is on the regular.
In Siege of Orgrimmar BM did more damage than SV yet SV had higher representation ¯\(ツ)/¯
Not to say that SV was more liked than BM, but there was a time where it could stand up to BM even if you try to rewrite history and say it wasn’t so.
Nope, this is just the revisionism I was talking about. This is only true if you count Legion SV and beyond.
On the eve of Legion, looking back to the 12 years prior before that point, SV was more often than not a popular spec.
Even if you count Vanilla and BC before the specs had any real definition (4 years) + the 1 year of HFC where they gutted it right as Legion was being announced, that’s 5 years out of 12.
Otherwise for most of WotLK to WoD it saw healthy representation.
Again you only try to deny this out of a scheme to make melee SV look better. You’re not delusional enough to argue that melee SV is popular so you go for the angle that ranged SV was just as unpopular and they didn’t make anything worse.
Sokyra is that delusional, BTW. They think melee SV is actually popular. Maybe you two should sort that out.
You haven’t debunked anything. I won’t entertain attempts to divert the discussion.
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Dont know what to tell you dude. You’re going to remain a bitter 40 year old wow boomer before survival is reverted so ¯*(ツ)* /¯
Yeah not once have i ever said or implied this This is your headcannon of what you’re trying to manifest as reality. I said survival is consistently the least popular hunter spec. Outside of all of cata, the first PvP season of WoD this is fact. Not opinion.
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It absolutely does.
Not automatically wrong but lacking in credibility and my desire to hear them out is severely diminished.
No, I don’t know who they are (I’m vaguely aware of Bellular from other posts here and elsehwere) and don’t listen/watch them.
Tell that to Tanks and Healers.
And this shows how sad you are.
You suck at lying.
I liked a lot of what the class does, mainly have a tameable pet. I don’t care for ranged over melee.
And that’s not what happened, stop concocting an enemy targeting you.
Which are completely unbiased and insightful.
It’s been 6 years and and now the 4 expansion since the change, it’s ridiculous to say it’s too much of a commitment to have changed classes in that time.
That argument goes both ways, Ranged Survival peeps are not more important than melee Survival players, which is what the spec has been for 6 years.
As has a bunch of other specs, ALL specs just got majorly overhauled with the new talent tree
It’s not getting reinvented every expansion. It lost Fury of the Eagle at the end of Legion, what remained got built up over BFA then SL and now DF which ADDED more stuff on top, it didn’t reinvent.
There’s not been a compromise, the Hunter general tree has ranged stuff added, not the survival side.
Through the general tree, not the Survival tree.
And?
No they didn’t, the Survival tree is about bombs and melee and closers, which is what it’s always been about.
You hate Survival, we get it.
It’s literally NOT, this is laughable “If we change everything but the damage numbers are the same then nothing is changed!” XD
It would be a different spec.
That’s not something either nor you could tell.
Yubie contradicted you a bit there.
Aimed Shot is just a generic pull the trigger ranged option. Nothing about it speaks “Hunter”. That’s how shallow your statement is.
According to you.
This is a lie.
This is also a lie.
It’s not, you calling it a waste of resources goes far beyond " i don’t think it’s good", trying to downplay your insults won’t improve your stance.
Because I and others enjoy melee, yes. THAT. Does. Not. Mean we’re enemies, or that you were targeted, you’re neither that important nor special. Treating everyone who plays Survival as out to undermine you is just building your own enemy so you can wallow in a need to be a dark horse.
Irrelevant to you using Wrath Classic as justification/actual history for… anything.
We disagree.
Kay?
Mostly whining.
To an extent yes, Holy Power for paladins, Insanity for Shadow Priest. If you think you have some gotcha due to “well those classes didn’t completely change their playstyle” well, you don’t. So needling about it doesn’t cause anything. People who want Ranged Survival back are really really loud, that doesn’t mean they’re the majority or that everyone else is in agreement with them, nor does it mean bringing back Ranged Survival would usher in some golden age for everything.
So you admit yes, you’re specialer and more important than everyone trying that moralistic tripe.
I’m saying you don’t get a free pass to screw people over just cause you got hurt in the past, not how that works.
Do you rant there too?
And in this particular argument you said “abandoned”, when it has not been. Not by the Designer, not by the people who like it.
more insults, kay.
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The data showing our class and spec representation over the history of this game has been linked plenty of times. It’s right there, showing that what you wrote here is NOT a fact.
What it shows is that survival has consistently been the least popular hunter spec ever since Legion, with the exception of late in Shadowlands, along with a brief period in Uldir in BfA, in certain areas of the game.
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Define ‘accurate’.
Not what I said.
You should know how ridiculous it is, trying to pass off an in-game observation of singular events, as any form of valid measurment of representation and health of individual classes/specs for the game as a whole.
Okay, so you didn’t just see them on one occasion(one spot), you saw them on several occasions. Got it. How does that in any way refute the previous statement that anecdotal observations are not valid points of reference for class/spec representation in the game as a whole?
You’re literally arguing that a method using [tens of…]thousands of points of data as reference, from multiple regions, is worse than your method of playing the game, where you have points of data closer to singular digits, or possibly double digits…(?).
By no means do I support the idea of people exploiting/cheating, but here, you’re saying that just because you don’t like a person, you shove your fingers in your ears and go ‘NANANANANANA…’?
On the course of being objective, evaluate what’s being said, not who’s saying it(based on your opinion of the person in question). There are definitely situations where you should take into account who is saying something, but when you’re basing it on past actions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, it becomes irrelevant.
Implement a 4th spec for the hunter class, to give back what was taken away in the form of old SV, and there’s no longer an issue here.
“…always”? Feel free to elaborate.
The only class that’s been designed to focus on ranged weapons as a primary, since the start of the game?
…which, also, has never been an argument made.
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Precisely.
You said “several topics”.
And you should learn how ridiculous it is to go solely by theorycrafting and data trawling rather than actual play experience.
The “theorycrafting and data trawling are not absolutes” part.
I’m arguing that it’s not absolute like y’all would want it to be.
There’s me not liking someone and that someone not having credibility. Important distinction.
That sounds great.
rolls eyes the talents tree has followed the same theme since 6 years ago since it was reworked to be melee.
And the ability is super generic, I was throwing bepples ridiculous complaint back at em.
Going off this thread y’all could have fooled me.
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Meanwhile in the real world…
SV is pretty interesting in dungeons, the use of butchery and bombs, plus explosive shot and FoE makes the rotation different and interesting. The one truly interesting talent I have been experimenting with is stampede. When aimed correctly, it is indeed a huge burst to damage.
I think SV will do just fine in M+ this season, it will indeed be interesting to see how things shake out.
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There you go again with the revisionism.
SV was popular all throughout MoP as well.
So you can add that, as well as at least the early half of WotLK because SV was popular then too.
We went over this in the last thread. Your continued avoidance of this point is notable. You’re ignoring it because it undermines your narrative.
In your post you linked some data from WoD which is from the default T17 page of WCL. I asked you what the date range was, you again ignored it. I don’t know whether you don’t know or you’re hiding it, but WCL by default shows the last 2 weeks. So for an old tier you’re looking at the very last 2 weeks of that tier; for T17 that’s in June 2015 right before HFC dropped. By then most Hunters had switched to BM and were getting their MM specs ready for 6.2 because a) BM’s T17 bonus was really good and b) we knew SV was about to be gutted by 6.2.
If you look at older data, i.e. set the time range to entire tier and then look spec by spec, you can see SV was very popular in early T17. In fact for a time it was the most played spec in the game. Even into BRF as BM took over you still had a decent amount of people playing SV.
So you started by saying ranged SV was consistently the least popular Hunter spec. After going through it we find:
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In WotLK it was the most popular until late Ulduar/TOC, then it drops to 2nd place (still far ahead of BM though)
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In Cata it was very popular the entire expansion. It was 2nd place in Firelands but otherwise its representation was very high
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In MoP its representation was consistently high the entire expansion, either 2nd or 1st in representation the entire way through (most of the time 1st)
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In WoD it started off high, slowed down to 2nd place as BRF went on, before plummeting to dead last in the game after 6.2’s nerfs
So in the time since it got Explosive Shot in WotLK to being made melee, an 8 year timespan out of the game’s 12 years as of Legion’s release, it was only significantly unpopular once and that was in 6.2 when they had already decided to make it melee and gutted the spec. As it turns out you’re far off base when you go around saying ranged SV was consistently the least popular Hunter spec.
Powerful argument right here, folks.
Lol? Comparing across roles is fallcious, and gneerally each tank and healer does see notable representation.
You yourself avoided the class until they made one of the specs melee. You didn’t like the class and its design. You only started liking SV once it significantly deviated from the core Hunter design. You are the thread’s example for what I’m talking about when I say melee SV was made for people who don’t like Hunters.
Sure, but there were far more ranged Survival players. You think this false but you think a lot of weird and wrong things.
No spec changes as frequently and drastically as SV. We are effectly on the 3rd major rework since and including Legion.
Survival in Legion had NO ranged weapon based attacks. Now it has more of them than melee weapon based attacks. The fact that they’re from the general tree doesn’t help your argument. It just highlights how the class is ranged at its core and SV is the odd one out.
In the example I outlined the rotation would be exactly the same. You would be using the same actions in the same priority. The ONLY difference would be the fact you’re using a ranged weapon and you’re free to do full DPS while outside of melee range.
Actually I can say with confidence that it would fare a lot better and see a lot more play. I can say this because ranged SV saw a lot of play.
Yubie is very wrong and being purpsefully misleading. Remember, he actually disagrees with you on melee SV’s popularity. He says correctly that melee SV is unpopular. His coping mechanism is arguing that ranged SV was just as unpopular so they didn’t make it worse, which is wrong.
Lol? It’s a ranged weapon attack. What a silly reply.
I’ve heard plenty of actual melee fans come here and complain the same: the actual melee parts of SV are lacking. The part where we disagree is they think that means Blizzard should expand the melee aspect while I think they should discard it.
In your priority it really is just Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite and Carve/Butchery. You pick one of each of those. Now Fury of the Eagle is back, but that’s a long CD (also a blatant ripoff of a Monk ability) and they tied in a gap closer mechanic to the other cooldown options. But the actual moment-to-moment melee gameplay is extremely lacking.
Wildfire Bomb is an extremely poor thematic fit for a melee spec. Again actual melee fans have noted this. On Trueshot Lodge the SV channel is more or less split into two factions: those who love WFB and want the spec to revolve more around it, and those who hate it and want to see it removed.
All the sidearm crossbow crap is also a pretty bad fit. It’s silly to be swinging a giant 2-hander around and all of a sudden putting it away, pulling out a janky little crossbow to fire off a poison dart, before putting it away and swinging around the 2-hander again. Like everything else in the spec it reeks of hasty bandaid-fixing.
If people wanted to see my spec removed, they got their wish granted, and then they fiercely defend against any sort of recompense or compromise, then yes I was targeted and they are my enemies. That’s just how that works. Downplaying the situation doesn’t make sense.
I’m right and you’re wrong.
You only want exotics because you’re conditioned to being handed other BM aspects like Spirit Bond. It’s not on. SV is already leeching way too much from BM. The whole ostensible point of making it melee in the first place was to avoid this sort of thing yet melee SV is doing it worse than ranged SV ever did. It exposes the whole business for the lie it always was.
These aren’t even remotely comparable examples.
For most specs in the game you can trace back all the way to classic and see how they reached their current state through iterative design each stage. You can’t do that with Survival. It abruptly cuts off at some point and throws everything away to be something entirely different. It has not worked out well.
We’re back to this circular reasoning.
Of course the people who like it still play it. If they didn’t like it they wouldn’t play it. The point is there aren’t a lot of people playing it.
It’s being rated all over the place as one of the worst DPS specs for M+ so good luck with that.
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Give me one reason why are they better than any of us? Better than you me or other people? That is their opinion and just because there Is bunch of sheep’s that believe everything they say downs reman they are right
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All of those people wish Survival was still ranged; I wish you’d stop and seek some help because this is clearly and unhealthy obsession of yours.
Unfortunately for both of these parties, neither will get what they want.
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So nobody has actually done the M+ with the tuning passes, and adjustments, but its been said we are the worst by people who have not actually played the content as is.
Hmm…ok. Because…beta. Yeah. Ok.
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the ranged SV dream is dead. if they didn’t do it with this huge talent tree revamp then its never happening.
best we can hope for now is they revamp MM to not feel like peanut butter water
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I agree Shadow, it has been a lot of fun going through the expansion over the last couple days, really interested to see how World PvP goes with it as well.
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You’re the one defending a cheater’s credability.
It’s not, and the numbers shrink constantly due to people treating them like crap or want them outright banned.
BUT I DIDN’T DEMAND THEY CHANGE IT EITHER.
When they switched a Hunter ranged spec with melee options to a melee spec with Hunter ranged options, “core Hunter design” they still have their pet last I checked.
I don’t hate Hunter, I just prefer melee when given the option. But keep choking on that bogeyman.
You claim.
More insults, kay.
Not really? adding more stuff isn’t in and of itself a “major rework”. The playstyle has been consistent going from BFA > SL > DF.
Why are you lying? We had hatchet/axe toss, Dragonsfire grenade, Explosive Trap, unless you mean literally throwing their weapon, in case, harpoon.
No they don’t.
It does.
It’s core is being a Hunter.
Which is talking without thinking.
And you’re full of it.
“The designers suck and don’t know what they’re doing, but if they did this thing I want they are obviously intelligent and great at their job.”
Your bias and rose tinted shared are affecting you.
And you’re righteous and never wrong.
I never claimed it was the most popular, that’s another lie made up for your victimhood.
Why do you suddenly not trust data when your whole argument has hinged on that, and whatever sweet lovable can do no wrong streamers tell you?
Didn’t argue with what I said.
Everyone wants more stuff, I want more stuff for Survival, I want more stuff for Windwalker, I want more stuff for Arms.
“It has a main spender like almost all DPS, therefore it only has 1 button!” just makes you look bad.
Cool, give us more stuff, give all the classes more stuff.
Your bias and lack of taste can prance off. Melee doesn’t mean they’re never allowed any reach or ranged abilities. Next you’re gonna claim charge and heroic throw aren’t Thematic for Warrior.
I doubt this. Not liking tier sets going all in on them sure, but not hating the ability in the first place.
I enjoy WFB but I don’t want it to be the spec’s main thing.
No it doesn’t it looks cools as hell.
I’m beggining to suspect your aesthetic tastes are just very bland.
“made a whole new model and animation” is the exact opposite of “hasty bandaid”
WHO WISHED THAT? I wasn’t playing in Legion. You are concocting enemies out to get you.
“I SUFFERED SO NOW YOU ALL MUST SUFFER WITH ME” just makes you sound sad and pathetic. Or a dungeon boss. Or a sad and pathetic dungeon boss.
You are a sad goblin.
Again, I wasn’t playing in Legion, stop making up this sitcom nemesis in the crap comic that is your life.
No, you just run on rage and spite.
You were talking about overhauls.
And if you actually did that you would see all the hunter melee abilities in the Survival spellbook/tree.
I just did.
And you’re wrong.
No you just don’t know how to have a conversation.
And again we disagree, not being the most played is not the same as everyone hates it.
Do tell seeing as how M+ isn’t available right now.
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How? According to the tooltip it deals less than half the damage of Explosive Shot, takes 12 seconds to do it, and has a cooldown 4 times as long.
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