A good spec? Weird take, but ok.
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I don’t remember which post it was in, but there was one of the devs that talked about a ranged SV talent node. Not exactly sure what it would entail, but it has been touched on recently. (It also could have been that worthless group that talks to the devs I forget what their called and if that’s what it was disregard this.)
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You’re trying way too hard gambling parrot pistol stabby elf.
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I think it was the comment about the ranger node , which buffed the attack of all your shots (explosive, kill shot, ss etc…) but I think they said something to the effect of they want to give SV more options, more flexbility but this was not a “hey we are bringing back RSV or splitting up the SV tree into a melee side and a ranged side”.
For my sake if they want to bring RSV back I would rather blizz does it as its own seperate tree as opposed to splitting SV to a melee build and a ranged build.
This is still Bepples on his alt account. He does this when someone owns him on the forums to make it look like more people are on his side
You in the wrong forum section
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This doesn’t make all his takes wrong.
Most normal, heroic, and mythic raids will have at least one person logging. It’s that universal.
Even if not every raid were running WCL, it’s unlikely that for all these years WCL has been specifically missing SV Hunters more than any other spec.
It matters because it’s not indicative of a spec with a healthy reputation and following. Hardly anyone wants to invest time and effort into it.
Nope because unlike you I don’t base my arguments on personal experience.
Where’s the data I won’t like?
I’m sure for some people SV being melee is a critical part of their enjoyment with the spec. The point is that’s not a lot of people; it’s probably not even most of the SV playerbase. Very few people would have their WoW play significantly degraded if SV became ranged. So it doesn’t make sense to continue compromising in favour of that tiny niche of people.
Does it suck to be told that your enjoyment and preference in this game is expendable? Yes, but that’s exactly what happened to ranged SV fans and there were way more of them. The fact of the matter is it doesn’t make sense to take away something from a lot of players just to benefit very few players.
Plenty of SV Hunters are also there for the gameplay/rotation, which could be mostly preserved even as a ranged spec. Then there are those that would prefer melee but it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker. Very few are there for the specific combination of being melee + the gameplay and would quit if it weren’t so. For most of the melee Hunter roleplayers if they added a talented melee option within BM that would be sufficient.
Well, no, because we know that ranged SV was a lot more popular than melee SV.
Nope because I would just ignore it and never pick it. Ranged BM would still be there as the default option if I wanted to play it, and before Legion I actually didn’t play BM that much at all. I only play it because ranged SV is gone.
Melee Hunter is niche.
It would mostly just be swapping any ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon one, for example Cobra Shot to Raptor Strike, Barbed Shot to Lacerate, Multi-Shot to Carve, Counter Shot to Muzzle. They could keep the rest largely the same. The melee versions would have the same effects and interactions as the ranged ones except they would do some more damage to compensate. That way the rest of the tree could stay the same. From there it’s mostly a matter of tuning.
If they really wanted to make full use of this new talent system they’d be looking into stuff like this. Instead it’s just mostly rebuilding what we had in BFA and SL with extra steps.
Well that’s what happened with melee SV: the smaller party got everything they wanted.
No, it isn’t.
Physical melee is well overdone. We have the 3 Rogue specs + the 2 Warrior specs, and you could probably consider Feral Druid as well.
Physical melee is just not unique or interesting once it’s been done that many times. Take a look at something like Carve/Butchery. What makes them Hunter abilities and not Warrior abilities? Just a matter of the decision, nothing inherent. If those abilities existed on the Warrior class no one would bat an eye.
Good grief, I didn’t even expect you to double down on that. No, calling the spec bad is not insultinmg the people who like it.
Did you miss the part where many of us lost our favourite playstyle option because of melee SV? So yes we did absolutely get targeted.
They’re not, really. It’s just 3.3 with a staggered content release. As someone who played back then I can assure you WotLK classic is mostly authentic.
No. Exotic pets are an iconic and unique part of BM. Just because SV Hunters are accustomed to being handed unique BM things doesn’t mean they should also be given exotic pets.
It’s correct that ranged SV was not any more controversial than other specs but it’s incorrect that melee SV is also not controversial. It’s the most controversial spec in the game. You evidently living under a rock doesn’t change that.
So? Why should they be given special status? The ranged SV fans were there first, for longer, and there were a lot more of them.
This is not proof that SV is not an unpopular spec.
You’re still wrong about MoP and WoD, for one. In MoP SV was more consistently higher represented than BM, and in WoD it wasn’t consistently any of the 3 specs: it changed with each raid release and MM actually spent the most time as the highest represented because 6.2 lasted so long.
But most importantly: you’re still fixated on what was the best/most highly represented (not always the same BTW) and you are incapable of understanding (or unwilling) that a spec can still have decent representation even if it isn’t the highest. For example, it’s true that MM outscales SV in WotLK and becomes the more popular option, but it’s also true that SV remains a popular option and doesn’t drop to something like 3% of the Hunter playerbase like melee SV.
That’s the point: ranged SV was consistently a popular spec. The only time it ever really reached abandonment status was in 6.2 when they gutted it right before announcing Legion. And yes in Classic and BC it wasn’t very popular but all 3 Hunter specs had very little separating them from a fantasy point of view back then. Most people are looking at the WotLK-WoD stretch.
In that time SV was consistently popular. You go at length to deny that because admitting it would put it in stark contrast with melee SV. You’re not delusional enough like Sokyra to argue melee SV is actually popular so your best bet is to revise history and say ranged SV was also unpopular so at least they didn’t actively make it worse.
The truth is ranged SV was popular while melee SV is only really “popular” if it does extremely high damage i.e. the most in the game. Even doing decent is not enough for SV. Right now its damage is actually pretty good but it’s not enough to bribe people to play the spec like it was with the SL tier set bonus. So either we a) keep SV overpowered at all times to keep people playing it, b) let SV remain a very unpopular and alienating choice, or c) reanalyse the decision to make it melee. Only C is good for the long term health of the spec and the Hunter class. The other 2 choices rest entirely on pride and an unwillingness to admit they make a mistake.
Your post back then completely sidestepped the point at hand, which wasn’t going well for you, to try to make it about me instead. I’m not going to indulge that. It’s a transparent attempt to change the focus of the discussion and waste time and here you are trying it again.
The “big boy point” is that ranged SV was a widely popular and enjoyed spec while melee SV is an exclusionary, alienating, niche spec. They made it worse by making it melee i.e. they made a mistake. This is transparently and obviously true to anyone that isn’t hopelessly biased. Rewriting history won’t change that.
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BRF Mythic
- BM-42,325
- MM-5,542
- SV-7,625
Heroic
- Bm-114,144
- MM-24,172
- SV-40,703
Normal
- BM-26,043
- MM-9,294
- SV-11,048
Where was the supposed super popular survival spec at in wod dude?
And you are incapable of reading comprehension because your bias flares up at the mere mention of survival.
Yes but poor performance leads to poor representation in most scenarios unless said spec is just absolutely beloved by its playerbase to DEATH. Like beast mastery is currently and was during periods like Antorus.
Im sorry, you dont get to gatekeep the actual definition of popularity and twist it so it fits your agenda. If a class had 3 specs, when 1(bm) is taking up 50-60% of its playerbase in PvE content, and the other (mm) is taking up 70-80% of its playerbase in PvP content…Hmmmmm
Its consistently the least popular spec throughout the years. Not opinion, fact.
I honestly dont know if you are stupid or trolling when you say things like this honest to god.
I will admit you got me to take 5 minutes on another post so good job. But my question still stands while i’ve answered, refuted, and debunked everything you’ve had to say.
Either stop being a coward or keep it on twitter where you can whine and moan into the void all you like.
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It does destroy his credibility.
Again, assumption (a very, very safe assumption for people doing Mythic obviously).
Wasn’t trying to say that, just that WCL isn’t the whole picture.
Yeah this is a a restriction you just made up.
Another assumption.
More foot shooting.
Everything that’s not WCL.
I’m one of them, if Hunter was still fully ranged for all 3 specs I never would have picked it up.
I’m going to disagree.
Cause according to you people who like melee Survival don’t matter.
You’re rewriting the situation to make yourself right, melee Survival was not an experiment or test they just wanted to run for a little bit, it BECAME melee 6 years ago. It’s not a compromise.
No one has said that.
It should tell you something that they full on changed the spec and it has stayed over 6 years later, even after the Class Designers changed.
“Nothing will change if we change it from melee to ranged” is a nonsensical argument.
Again, an assumption you are made up.
Another assumption.
No we don’t, and no, Wrath Classic is not a viable justification for anything, least of all “how things were”.
My point would be an equivalent of you having the same argument, it just got shunted to a different spec.
With a bunch of the talent tree and design resources taken away. You’re asking for what you personally hated and are eternally spiteful for to happen to a different spec. “I suffer so everyone else has to!” Does not do you any favors.
Keep telling yourself that.
Yeah not that easy.
That doesn’t give you the right to demand everyone else get screwed over now though.
HALF of all specs is not "overdone.
This is a lie. By that logic Ranged is not unique once it’s been done x amount of times, which would also be a lie.
On that specific I’ll agree is a failure of a choice noce, why do we even have Carve? it’s a trap option.
So we should give all Trap making abilities to Rogue and Bombs to Warrior? Okay.
Yep.
You’re going far beyond simply calling it bad, you’re calling it a waste of resources and insulting those who do like it.
Right, I personally told Adam Kugler to take away your spec 6 years ago when I wasn’t even playing the game, I’m your bogeyman.
Now I know without a shadow of a doubt you’re full of it.
You missed where I said ALL hunters.
Didn’t say it wasn’t.
The most controversial spec changes with each hotfix.
There’s no special status, YOU’RE the one demanding special status by wanting to screw over BM or Melee Survival peeps like you have some sacred right, like you’re owed it and everyone else has to suffer. Not how that works.
Again, the latter is your assumption.
It does disprove that it is an “abandoned” spec, which is what you said. Quit trying to move the goalposts.
More insults, kay.
You don’t get to use this an attack then turn around and say most people only care about damage above all else as a justification for bringing back ranged Survival.
It is not.
No, the only thing true is that you hate the spec, nothing more.
No no, you see, you’re only supposed to go off of what Classic tells you.
…uh… I would advise against that choice of words, being you’re a Velf… they might take it as an invitation XD
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Me after reading this thread:
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Why would you do that to yourself?
This thread just makes me love MSV even more.
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im actually a vulpera all my friends are horde now so no point in staying on the L faction 
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Awww, but yay more foxies!
It doesn’t, though.
You seem to have difficulty separating the concept of an argument to a person’s identity.
To you, if a person is of bad character, their arguments are automatically wrong. That isn’t how things work.
For example, Preach says he wishes Survival were still ranged. You can dismiss his take as bad because he exploited at some point, but what about when Liquid Max comes out and says the same thing? Or Izen Hart? or Bellular? Yes all of them have come out and criticised the concept of a melee Hunter. Are they all just bad people for some reason or another?
I don’t think many would disagree that a healthy spec would be one that has a sizeable regular following and a consistent and coherent design, neither of which are true for Survival.
Like I said, this would be ideal. Not even trying to be insulting. BM and MM are specs that build on the core foundation of a WoW Hunter, which features ranged weapons as the core part. Ranged SV once did as well. If you didn’t like any of those 3 specs that means you didn’t like the class and the reason you like SV so much is because it isn’t built as a Hunter spec. We should not be designing Hunter specs for people who don’t like Hunters.
Well it’s not like very many people from other classes even showed up to main Survival given that not many people showed up period, so it really wouldn’t affect a lot of people in any case.
We don’t have any surveys for this so I’m just highlighting what I’ve seen around forums. While there are die-hards like you who say melee is a critical part of their enjoyment, there are also Hunters who tolerate Survival and play it despite being melee. Since rerolling is a lot more commitment than respeccing it’s safe to assume at least a sizeable part of SV’s current playerbase fits into that camp.
I’m not saying they don’t matter: I’m saying they don’t matter more than ranged SV mains, so the class should not be designed as if they do matter more.
It’s been in a state of flux since then. They evidently aren’t very happy with how it’s turning out if they keep having to reinvent it including various compromises towards the ranged side of Hunters. Did you know Legion SV had no ranged attacks beyond a couple talents (grenades and throwing axes)? Now it literally has access to more ranged weapon abilities than melee weapon abilities. Even as they try to keep it melee they can’t avoid the influence of the baseline ranged foundation of Hunters.
They’ve already compromised. It’s just not good enough, and if they don’t want to take it to the next level they can be content with wasting even more time and effort reinventing an unpopular concept every couple of years.
Thought experiment: let’s say the take the current SV and they replace the melee abilities with ranged equivalents. Raptor Strike, Mongoose Bite, Carve, Butchery, Muzzle, and Fury of the Eagle are replaced with ranged equivalents and Coordinated Assault and Spearhead lose their charge component. Let’s just say it keeps Harpoon for utility purposes and it loses Aspect of the Eagle because it no longer needs it. It uses a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon. Otherwise every other choice and interaction stays the same.
It’s the same gameplay from a rotation perspective. It’s literally the same gameplay if you’re up in front of the enemy. It just uses a ranged weapon instead and you can now do full damage up to 40 yards away.
Is it a better or worse spec? Does it become more or less popular? How much of SV’s current playerbase stays around and how much of them quit?
I know you would quit but I’m interested to see how you think the spec would fare after that.
It’s not just Wrath Classic. It was popular for most of the WotLK-WoD stretch.
Huh, so both sides of the argument would have to accept shortcomings but otherwise keep most of what they want? Almost sounds like a compromise or something.
Yes it wouldn’t be ideal for someone like me. If I had absolute power there would not be any melee Hunter at all because I see it as unnecessary. MoP is commonly cited as Hunter’s best expansion and that was one where we had no melee weapon dependence whatsoever. However, I understand a small niche of people like melee Hunters so I see compromise as acceptable. If part of the BM tree were a melee path I would be fine with that so long as most of BM as it is remains preserved. I would never take the melee talents but I would be fine with them being there. What I’m not fine with is an entire 3rd of the class, one that was already occupied, be dedicated to such a niche concept.
The lead developer literally called it a niche spec.
… the option they took is the one that screwed the maximum number of people over. You just don’t see it that way because you’re part of the niche that got preferential treatment.
No, it is overdone. That specific way of approaching melee combat is already covered by at least 5 specs. Ranged weapon usage is very unique; only Hunters do it, and one of those specs (BM) already has little focus on the ranged weaponry. It makes zero sense to take away from that limited pool of ranged weapon specs to add to an already crowded pool of physical melee.
What’s that got to do with anything? Traps come with the Hunter baseline.
Butchery is just a generic physical melee option. Nothing about it speaks “Hunter”.
That’s one of the problems with melee SV. For all this talk about the melee aspect being so critical, the melee parts of the spec are the most generic and boring parts. It’s just two abilities: your single target spender (Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite) and your AoE CDR/filler (Carve/Butchery). Most of the aesthetic flair and uniqueness comes from things like Wildfire Bomb and the pets, which notably aren’t reliant (or worse: outright conflicting) with being melee.
I think even you understand at some level what a ridiculous stretch this is.
You didn’t do it personally, but you do appreciate that it happened.
As for Blizzard: it’s utter nonsense to cry “live and let live” and say we get worked up over nothing when we lost our favourite spec.
Man there must be some weird bug then where I have all these achievements from 2008 including some that you can’t get any more after WotLK.
Doesn’t make a difference. It’s a unique BM thing. It should not belong to all specs.
And let’s be honest: it’s usually not MM Hunters asking for this.
Do you see big arguments like these popping up for other specs?
Not arguments over tuning: arguments over the core design and existence of the spec.
Special status? All I’m saying is that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You’re the one saying the opposite; that the few should be prioritised.
Did you know Myspace is still running and has users?
It’s the slimmest of fractions of a percentage of what it once was, but some people honestly still use it.
Are we forbidden to use the word “abandoned” to describe MySpace?
We’ve already been over this. No one is seriously saying that there are 0 Survival Hunters. That’s a strawman. What we are saying is that Survival is very unpopular.
What is the time range for that data? As in, what dates are we talking about?
I know the answer already. I just want to see what you think it is.
But most of the time ranged SV wasn’t “poor performance” and therefore its representation was fine, as opposed to melee SV which is lacking in representation even in good performance.
Most specs do not need best-in-the-game damage to achieve middle-of-the-pack representation. Ranged SV didn’t. Even during ICC back then it saw decent representation. I think it will be less so in WotLK Classic because people are a lot more performance-minded now than they were back then, but it also won’t be at abandonment status like melee SV is on the regular.
In Siege of Orgrimmar BM did more damage than SV yet SV had higher representation ¯\(ツ)/¯
Not to say that SV was more liked than BM, but there was a time where it could stand up to BM even if you try to rewrite history and say it wasn’t so.
Nope, this is just the revisionism I was talking about. This is only true if you count Legion SV and beyond.
On the eve of Legion, looking back to the 12 years prior before that point, SV was more often than not a popular spec.
Even if you count Vanilla and BC before the specs had any real definition (4 years) + the 1 year of HFC where they gutted it right as Legion was being announced, that’s 5 years out of 12.
Otherwise for most of WotLK to WoD it saw healthy representation.
Again you only try to deny this out of a scheme to make melee SV look better. You’re not delusional enough to argue that melee SV is popular so you go for the angle that ranged SV was just as unpopular and they didn’t make anything worse.
Sokyra is that delusional, BTW. They think melee SV is actually popular. Maybe you two should sort that out.
You haven’t debunked anything. I won’t entertain attempts to divert the discussion.
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Dont know what to tell you dude. You’re going to remain a bitter 40 year old wow boomer before survival is reverted so ¯*(ツ)* /¯
Yeah not once have i ever said or implied this This is your headcannon of what you’re trying to manifest as reality. I said survival is consistently the least popular hunter spec. Outside of all of cata, the first PvP season of WoD this is fact. Not opinion.
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It absolutely does.
Not automatically wrong but lacking in credibility and my desire to hear them out is severely diminished.
No, I don’t know who they are (I’m vaguely aware of Bellular from other posts here and elsehwere) and don’t listen/watch them.
Tell that to Tanks and Healers.
And this shows how sad you are.
You suck at lying.
I liked a lot of what the class does, mainly have a tameable pet. I don’t care for ranged over melee.
And that’s not what happened, stop concocting an enemy targeting you.
Which are completely unbiased and insightful.
It’s been 6 years and and now the 4 expansion since the change, it’s ridiculous to say it’s too much of a commitment to have changed classes in that time.
That argument goes both ways, Ranged Survival peeps are not more important than melee Survival players, which is what the spec has been for 6 years.
As has a bunch of other specs, ALL specs just got majorly overhauled with the new talent tree
It’s not getting reinvented every expansion. It lost Fury of the Eagle at the end of Legion, what remained got built up over BFA then SL and now DF which ADDED more stuff on top, it didn’t reinvent.
There’s not been a compromise, the Hunter general tree has ranged stuff added, not the survival side.
Through the general tree, not the Survival tree.
And?
No they didn’t, the Survival tree is about bombs and melee and closers, which is what it’s always been about.
You hate Survival, we get it.
It’s literally NOT, this is laughable “If we change everything but the damage numbers are the same then nothing is changed!” XD
It would be a different spec.
That’s not something either nor you could tell.
Yubie contradicted you a bit there.
Aimed Shot is just a generic pull the trigger ranged option. Nothing about it speaks “Hunter”. That’s how shallow your statement is.
According to you.
This is a lie.
This is also a lie.
It’s not, you calling it a waste of resources goes far beyond " i don’t think it’s good", trying to downplay your insults won’t improve your stance.
Because I and others enjoy melee, yes. THAT. Does. Not. Mean we’re enemies, or that you were targeted, you’re neither that important nor special. Treating everyone who plays Survival as out to undermine you is just building your own enemy so you can wallow in a need to be a dark horse.
Irrelevant to you using Wrath Classic as justification/actual history for… anything.
We disagree.
Kay?
Mostly whining.
To an extent yes, Holy Power for paladins, Insanity for Shadow Priest. If you think you have some gotcha due to “well those classes didn’t completely change their playstyle” well, you don’t. So needling about it doesn’t cause anything. People who want Ranged Survival back are really really loud, that doesn’t mean they’re the majority or that everyone else is in agreement with them, nor does it mean bringing back Ranged Survival would usher in some golden age for everything.
So you admit yes, you’re specialer and more important than everyone trying that moralistic tripe.
I’m saying you don’t get a free pass to screw people over just cause you got hurt in the past, not how that works.
Do you rant there too?
And in this particular argument you said “abandoned”, when it has not been. Not by the Designer, not by the people who like it.
more insults, kay.
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The data showing our class and spec representation over the history of this game has been linked plenty of times. It’s right there, showing that what you wrote here is NOT a fact.
What it shows is that survival has consistently been the least popular hunter spec ever since Legion, with the exception of late in Shadowlands, along with a brief period in Uldir in BfA, in certain areas of the game.
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Define ‘accurate’.
Not what I said.
You should know how ridiculous it is, trying to pass off an in-game observation of singular events, as any form of valid measurment of representation and health of individual classes/specs for the game as a whole.
Okay, so you didn’t just see them on one occasion(one spot), you saw them on several occasions. Got it. How does that in any way refute the previous statement that anecdotal observations are not valid points of reference for class/spec representation in the game as a whole?
You’re literally arguing that a method using [tens of…]thousands of points of data as reference, from multiple regions, is worse than your method of playing the game, where you have points of data closer to singular digits, or possibly double digits…(?).
By no means do I support the idea of people exploiting/cheating, but here, you’re saying that just because you don’t like a person, you shove your fingers in your ears and go ‘NANANANANANA…’?
On the course of being objective, evaluate what’s being said, not who’s saying it(based on your opinion of the person in question). There are definitely situations where you should take into account who is saying something, but when you’re basing it on past actions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, it becomes irrelevant.
Implement a 4th spec for the hunter class, to give back what was taken away in the form of old SV, and there’s no longer an issue here.
“…always”? Feel free to elaborate.
The only class that’s been designed to focus on ranged weapons as a primary, since the start of the game?
…which, also, has never been an argument made.
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Precisely.
You said “several topics”.
And you should learn how ridiculous it is to go solely by theorycrafting and data trawling rather than actual play experience.
The “theorycrafting and data trawling are not absolutes” part.
I’m arguing that it’s not absolute like y’all would want it to be.
There’s me not liking someone and that someone not having credibility. Important distinction.
That sounds great.
rolls eyes the talents tree has followed the same theme since 6 years ago since it was reworked to be melee.
And the ability is super generic, I was throwing bepples ridiculous complaint back at em.
Going off this thread y’all could have fooled me.
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Meanwhile in the real world…
SV is pretty interesting in dungeons, the use of butchery and bombs, plus explosive shot and FoE makes the rotation different and interesting. The one truly interesting talent I have been experimenting with is stampede. When aimed correctly, it is indeed a huge burst to damage.
I think SV will do just fine in M+ this season, it will indeed be interesting to see how things shake out.
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