Delete the Alliance from Horde territory

Lore Story Forum
81

Humans: Lordaeron rightfully belongs to us!

Horde: Hold up, Lordaeron belongs to the people of Lordaeron.

Human: Who are all dead, it’s human land now, we’re taking it.

Horde: Well then we get Kalimdor.

Night Elves: Nope. That’s ours.

Horde: How much of it?

Night Elves: All of it!

Horde: What the entire continent?

Night Elves: Yes. Compensation for Teldrassil.

Horde: Well, maybe Zul’Gurub can be the new capitol.

Humans: Nope.

Horde: Burning Steppes?

Humans: Still too close to us.

Horde: Hinterlands then! Jintha’Alor would be a great new Horde capitol!

Dwarves: That’s our territory!

Horde: Sure it isn’t Troll territory?

Dwarves: Nope and don’t care, get lost!

Horde: Where do we go then?

Alliance: Don’t you get it? We want as much as possible with you guys left with as little as possible. If we could somehow round up all the Horde and dump you all on the Echo Isles to contain you there it would be the perfect scenario for us. Even then, we would eventually still advance on Echo Isles and take that too.

Horde: Well, there’s always Silvermoon.

Void Elves: Yeah, about that…

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82

It’s almost like the Horde is a politically alien entity whose presence on the planet was conceived as a means of conquest and as such their historical land claims are consistently specious as heck.

And before anyone brings up Trolls, the Horde does not speak for Trolls. They don’t even speak for jungle trolls. The idea that all Troll claims are Horde claims was always nonsensical imperialist rhetoric on the part of the Horde, especially given the Horde’s betrayal of groups like the Amani when supporting them became politically inconvenient.

And even then, Troll land claims are frequently based on a sense of revanchism whose origins date back so long ago that their claims are often in a similar vein to someone claiming land rights in 2021 on the basis of ancient Babylonian law.

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83

I suppose the only place for the Horde then is on the end of a wooden pike then yes?

84

The Horde shouldn’t even be the Horde. Why it insists on deliberately cultivating a political legacy stretching back to the Rise of the Horde on Draenor is insane. I suppose that maybe it’s a reflection of its Orcish origins and Orcs want to keep the Horde as a symbol of unity despite all of the horrible, terrible baggage it entails for the sake of cohesion between the clans, but that still doesn’t explain the Horde’s obsession with projecting power to the maximum extent that it possibly can before getting any significant pushback, and that it always insists on trying to project power to places where people already live rather than in places with plenty of room.

The Horde claims that it just wants to live in peace but it simultaneously insists on having a forward military presence in places that it doesn’t need nor has it historically controlled. You can see it in this very line of reasoning; the suggestion that the Horde should control less land than the Alliance is considered an abhorrent and laughable offense against what the Horde considers to be its sovereign right to geopolitical dominance.

So maybe we should just dispense with all the hemming and hawing and say it plainly: The Horde shouldn’t have as much land as the Alliance. It’s the demographically smaller faction with far weaker historical land claims. It doesn’t need as much land as the Alliance, and it does not have the right to as much land as the Alliance.

Nobody cares if the Horde hangs out in the Barrens or whatever. Heck, they can have pretty much everything south of Ashenvale if they want, along with Quel’thalas. This is already far more than the Horde would need for hundreds of years, especially if they worked hard and used things like druidism and shamanism to make the land more resource abundant. But that, of course, isn’t satisfying is it?

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85

Here comes the alliance bias again. Didn’t expect anything else from the crazy dwarf. He doesen’t want fairness. He wants alliance supremacy.

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86

I disagree with you on one point. Claims don’t matter. Only conquest.

Trolls got conquered. Night Elves got conquered. Gilneans got conquered. Forsaken got conquered. This is Warcraft. You want it? Take it. Alien or Ancestral.

Other than that I agree that the Horde is the weaker faction. A distant second to the Alliance which is certainly a superpower in Azeroth but I don’t think the Horde is one itself. A shell of it’s former power.

Maybe the Alliance can have whatever, 70/80% of the worlds territory. The Horde has whatever the Alliance deems unwanted as the Horde has little bargaining power. No more faction wars unless it’s to dismantle the Horde once and for all (I suppose all Horde players would get a free faction change at that point).

I doubt Blizzard would ever do anything that one sided and extreme as it would punish a large portion of the player base for nothing else than playing the wrong side, but the Horde does feel second rate.

Maybe the Horde can have lower Kalimdor, only if the Night Elves allow them that is. Assist the Alliance when they want. Got a suicide mission? That’s a Horde job.

I can’t deny it. Horde are pathetic. Thanks Blizzard! :smiley:

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87

Blizz do should questing like they did in Stormheim during legion, both sides work towards a similar objective, but never actually come into contact with each other, outside of the occasional enemy npc for both sides. And it leaves open enough moral greyness both sides can justify their sides actions.

Is that fair? Both sides get to keep their current lands and neither side has to interact for the rest of WoWs lifetime :wolf:

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You said Ashenvale has been cleared out since MoP? So has the Southern Barrens. They pulled out of there after the war.

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As of BFA we do.

But you’re also conveniently ignoring the Tauren, Elves, Goblins, Humans and Pandaren that make up the Horde. The Alliance has as many “alien” races as the Horde.

That’s because of the threat the Alliance poses to it’s existence should it gain the upper hand.

While dominance is obviously preferred, subservience must be avoided at all cost, lest it lead to destruction.

As long as the Alliance expands to new places, the Horde must do the same.

Pure speculation. We have no way of knowing that as it’s completely up to the whims of the writers.

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90

I didn’t just decide it, blizzard did, long ago. Blizzard and many people realise long ago that the alliance, mostly human and night elf, just had to much territory compare to the horde. Then blizzard, not me, decide to give some of the human land and night elf land to the horde because how many zone the night elf had. And to this day, no matter how blind night elf fan want to be, night elf still have more zone than every other race except human and maybe orc, which is why i didn’t propose the new horde zone to be a orc one.

That argument is just ridiculous. The horde decided nothing as the horde is a fiction faction. Blizzard decided it. The same blizzard that also decide to give that many zone to the night elf back in WC3. Should i be saying that its the night elf zone for living in that many zone when they decide to be part of a 23 playable race game. If you want to deny gameplay decision at the lore expense, might as well deleting the night elf since a genocide race who barely have any children wouldn’t last long and it even worst since they are in a enemy dominating continent.

If Ashenvale was that important, the night elf just had to continue living there instead of living and just ‘‘protecting it’’ as a holy land from distance. In a world where so many race fight for a place to leave, keeping a super big zone that you don’t even want to live in just because ‘‘it a holy place’’ is just selfish.

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91

The Zandalari don’t speak for all Trolls no matter how much they might claim to. There’s a reason that the Zandalari Empire fell apart.

Aside from the Tauren, all of these groups are very small portions of a larger, wider race that is independent from the Horde (especially if you’re going to consider the Forsaken humans) and in many cases, aligned with the Alliance.

Arguing that because the Horde has Elves and Pandaren and whatnot in it, the Horde therefore has land claims covering the territories that any member of those races (Horde or not) have inhabited is just more imperialism, except with the addition of some convenient political props used to justify what the Horde is really interested in, which is taking things and dominating others.

The Alliance has had the Horde dead to rights several times over the course of WoW and has had the upper hand since MoP and the Alliance didn’t destroy the Horde. Maybe you’re thinking that they were stupid not to, but they didn’t. The “oh, but if the Alliance gets too strong they’ll wipe us out, we NEED entire subcontinents worth of colonial holdings!” excuse doesn’t fly anymore.

The Horde is frankly more secure in Kalimdor than it’s ever been. It just keeps throwing that security away because security isn’t what it’s interested in. It’s interested in dominance. It’s not a surprise that this organization keeps on churning out Garroshes and getting used by Sylvanases and Kil’jaedens. The faction is basically one giant, easily exploitable ego.

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92

They speak for all the ones the Horde use to make claims on territory.

Yes it does, and always will, because all it takes is one change in leader for all of those previous policies to change.

The Alliance will always be a threat, because if Anduin dies, and some ***hole takes his place, they could exterminate the Horde if the Horde doesn’t maintain parity.

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93

Oh and I guess that’s all that matters lol

This is so deranged. Do you know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is?

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It’s all that matters for…the EXACT topic this entire thread is about, yes. I know you want to try and draw in irrelevant information, but we’re specifically talking about what the territory the Horde can, and can’t reasonably claim ownership of. And what’s relevant there, is what the Trolls that are in the Horde, have a claim to.

What, say, the Sand Trolls can claim isn’t relevant to this discussion. Because they aren’t in the Horde.

It’s not, because those races have subfactions. And those subfactions have claims on different territories.

Night Elf land is not Blood Elf land. Forsaken land is not Kul Tiran land. But the Horde still has reasonable claims on those lands because the Alliance doesn’t “own” those races, and none of those races are, as you tried to ridiculously insinuate, “alien”.

I’m not saying it’s reasonable. Just that is and always will be, the justification. The Horde will never fully trust the Alliance to allow them the right to exist, therefor they will always take steps to ensure the Alliance doesn’t have the strength to eradicate them.

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95

Bolded the relevant part. “We have some Trolls hanging out in Dazar’alor that we beat up for dailies, therefore we claim everything in the Eastern Kingdoms” is not a reasonable claim. The Horde has very few reasonable claims. That’s my point.

It’s one of the drawbacks of being a relatively small faction made up of outcasts and misfits.

And those Horde subfactions are all very small minorities compared to the overwhelming majorities that aren’t Horde, yet the Horde claims the presence of those small minorities as its justification for conquest of the larger majorities. Literal minority rule under the Horde’s thumb.

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96

Was someone making that claim? Cause that one doesn’t even make sense. Dazar’alor isn’t in the EK.

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I’d say the reasonable claims would be places like Quel’thalas, Tirisfal, and parts of some surrounding territories, and the Hinterlands.
In the eastern kingdoms that is.

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Say the guy that claim that Lordaeron is a alliance territory because of the very small portion of a larger wider race that is no longer with the alliance…

Then why do they have all troll tribe representation in Dazar’alor? Why is it always the zandalari that give us the order to kill a tribe when this said tribe is going to far? The horde, which include zandalari, probably the biggest jungle tribe alive and the reventusk have way more claim on troll land than the one who got those land by conquered it and which lost it by being conquered.

If you want to have the claim on land you conquer, you got to give the claim to those you do the same to you. That goes both way.

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99

I don’t see how.

Those subfactions controlled those lands BEFORE joining the Horde. And then continued to control them after joining the Horde. The Forsaken claiming the land they ALREADY LIVED IN had nothing to do with joining the Horde.

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“The Horde has claims anywhere there are Trolls, such as Stranglethorn or Hinterlands” was one of the things that the guy I responded to initially was insinuating, and it’s very common for Horde in general to use “all land is troll land” as a justification for Horde expansion. Hell, even Rokhan did it in BfA in Arathi despite him being a Jungle Troll and the local Forest Trolls not being aligned with him in any way.

Literally just Quel’thalas frankly. The Forsaken are a small minority of the group of people that has claim to Tirisfal, with the overwhelming majority now being either neutral or Alliance. The Revantusk in the Hinterlands are a very small tribe whose traditional lands don’t extent much further than what they already control.

The Horde making claims on these places on the basis of the minority of individuals that are nominally Horde that might have claim, even at the expense of the vast majority who aren’t Horde, is a naked attempt to impose tyranny for the sake of the Horde’s imperial interests.

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