It will just cause balancing issues and we all know ONE shadow dance is what the spec should be played around. A hard hitting burst CD, not some spammable clown fiesta button like BfA/Legion. Aren’t we trying to fix rogue not continue letting the cancer grow Blizz?
Delete this trash and never, ever, EVER return to it.
I’ve been on this train for years now. But the prioroities of a lot of the rogues on these forums are all wrong. They spent more time whining about Blizz’s “shadowblade” theme, lack of poisons, etc…
Hence why we still have stupid Enveloping Shadows talent. Oh but we have Rupture instead of Nightblade. And they brought back crippling poison instead of our autoattacks just causing a slow. Clearly Sub is better now.
Big, big, big agree with the op. Shadow dance should be and feel IMPACTFUL. If we end up being able to keep shadow dance up near 100% of the time, it begins to lose its uniqueness and its value as the specs primary mechanic/cooldown.
SD should stay a 1 min CD, and Deepening Shadows should also be removed/reworked to not affect the cd timer of SD. If anything DS should be reworked to reduce the CD of Shadow Blades so we can better plan and line it up with SD bursts, or use it more on its own for needed pressure, combo point gen or damage.
Tweet that at the devs; it might have a better shot of being seen there. 100% agree with you. The overabundance of Cheap Shot from Enveloping Shadows is probably why they haven’t given Gouge back to Sub yet.
It’s Modern era ActivisionBlizzard they would never do anything constructive or good with the rogue class.
The rogue community had nice long detailed and constructive post started by Shoegazer regarding subtlety and just how terrible the design is.
Blizzard basically ignored everything.
Strong disagree. Shoegazer was at best counterproductive. Spending months calling the devs idiots and saying that the “Shadowblade” theme was the stupidest idea ever is just going to get you ignored.
The best example of productive conversation was Nahj’s beta posts that got us mulitple charges of Shadowstep and got the snare taken off of Nightblade.
Blizzard are humans too, and they have pride and are just as capable as the rest of us to succumbing to the sunken cost fallacy. That why I spent months arguing that the Rupture to Nightblade change was fine. We don’t need crippling poison because mechanically it isn’t very different. And I argued keeping charges on Dance was fine. To me the biggest machanical failure in sub was cooldown reduction on Dance causing too much uptime.
Focus on what matter. Plus let the devs keep some of their pride.
Now we’re stuck where we are.
Honestly tho, Shoes wasn’t wrong.
I remember him going insane at the end of WoD going into Legion. He said sub was going to be a absolute dumpster fire, and it was. They killed the highest skill gap spec in the game, and turned it into a SS spam factory. It was one of the saddest points in the games history for me.
Going forward though I feel like blizzard has finally realized parts of the mistakes that were made with sub over the last couple expansions. We just need to make sure we are vocal about the things that are wrong with the spec, and Enveloping Shadows along with Deepening Shadows are the root problem with the spec atm.
Shadow Dance needs to be a major CD and not something that you end up popping every 5 to 10 secs due to SS and Finisher spam. Change the duration of SD to 10 secs and do away with Deepening Shadows and Enveloping Shadows. This way we can also buff the damage of Shadow Strike since we wont be able to spam it as much. Plus we could see the return of gouge seeing as how our CS spam would be curtailed greatly.
Imo these are steps that will return sub back to its old identity of having massive burst that needed to be set up while still having the ability to provide spot CC if needed over burst.
Yeppers shoes was right along.
Battle for Abiilities gave us fisher price class design. Poisons returning is because players fought back against devs that don’t know what they are doing.
Keep fighting because that is the only way the “new devs” listen.
I don’t use twitter so maybe one of you can. Its like the fellow rogue above me says, fisher price design… they won’t listen anyway so fk it. I will never play sub with charges, 30% dmg talent better be blatantly better, especially in pvp, or its a dead spec again.
Its hard to know really, but with all the borrowed power cancer these days I am sure the charges will reign supreme, its just a gut feeling. Imagine being in shadow dance 24/7, like what the hell is the point of it existing then, just buff base dmg and remove the ability LOL.
Yeppers shadow dance uptime by these devs is justified because it is just part of a rotation. What the new devs miss is that shadow dance should return to being a DPS cool down that is cool to hit.
They not only nerfed the fun of shadow dance but look at what they did to Adrenaline Rush. AR is just something you hit part of your rotation now.
How did Sub and Outlaw go from having powerful CDs to having CDs turned into boring CDs used for a standard rotation?
Boggles the mind.
I honestly feel like Shadow Dance should be a bottom row talent and replace Shadow Blades if you take it, Similar to how Crusade replaces Avenging Wrath.
Blades and Dance both do similar things: Blades makes your Backstab generate 2 combo points and Dance allows you to replace Backstab with Shadowstrike Ambush, also generating 2 combo points.
During WotLK Dance was the final talent just like Killing Spree.
Prep and Premed should be baseline just like Adrenaline Rush and Combat Potency are for Outlaw Combat.
With Dance not being baseline Sub’s rotation would have to be spiced up a bit and would also allow Hemorrhage, Gouge, and Garotte to return.
I’d much rather play a more modern version of the game that will get new content.
If we have to play an xpac eons old just to get good class design then that is straight up pathetic, may as well play a different game at that point. If they made new content for old xpacs then I would be totally down to play but I don’t like the feeling of being frozen in time.
Even wotlk would probably bore me pretty quick after initial play through, but no doubt class design from any xpac besides legion/bfa is far superior… thats all I want from old WoW.
I played sub during bc and quit playing wow during the end of cata. I dont see where all this talk coming from dance being a high skill cap when balanced around one total dance. Seems like people are wanting the burst of ambush back and tbh its never going to happen. Sub was so broken back then. Sap defender 1 blind heals dance ambush spam efc to death. Thats not skill my friend thats just easymode. I prefer it if my kit isnt based around 1 single burst window. Not to mention nobody is grabbing enveloping shadows anyhow the 30% damage during dance is better overall and enveloping will be the pve go to and on ptr atm feels very fluid. Sub rogue is going to feel great in pve in sl honestly better than it has ever felt since i started playing this game. No clunky rotation and dances line up well if you stay on target. Maybe it felt better in mop idk but you guys thinking this one talent is ruining the entire spec is pretty laughable.
You don’t understand… you can’t even begin to imagine how skillful Sub used to be… remember when cheapshot and kidney didn’t DR? Yeah… those were the days.
Who is talking about skillcap but you? What is being discussed is SD being an important burst CD not part of the regular rotation, because otherwise it has zero meaning or flavor or fun.
I don’t expect much coming from someone who is focused on sub pve tho.