Deep Elements vs. Windspeaker

Classes Shaman
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Okay. Here’s the deal. Everyone mindlessly follows Murlok, because they are under the illogical and mistaken impression that “whatever R1 class does is the best, and therefore everyone should run it”.

We know this is not true because there are extremely high ranked ele shamans running the earthquake leggo, which is… not great… but yet, they achieved high rating.

So here’s my question: aside from “because others do it, I should do it too”, does anyone have any hard evidence (think: sims, etc.) that show why Deep Elements is superior to Windspeaker?

As far as I can see, after testing in 2s, 3s, and RBGs, Windspeaker gives overall more lava bursts, and more damage. This is with 60% haste and Unlimited Power. So why is everyone picking Deep Elements? I understand it refreshes flame shock, which is a nice bonus, but damage wise, seems like it procs only a few times per PVP match, mostly because of how fast the matches are played with this garbage burst meta.

Anyone have any thoughts on this with hard data to back it up? I’m not saying Windspeaker is actually better, I’m just saying I haven’t seen a good argument for why it is inferior.

On that note and a similar question: why does everyone take Primal Elementalist, which, granted, is a nice 40% dmg reduction for 10 seconds, but conflicts horribly with the tier set bonuses? Isn’t the point of the tier set to be chunking out lava bursts and extending your flame shocks and, most importantly, your FIRE elemental? If you take Primal, you will use it as a wall against rogues, etc., but if you happen to use it after your fire elemental was already summoned, it will dismiss the fire elemental, which you will likely not be able to summon again in the match (2.5 minute CD). This complete wrecks the synergy of the tier sets, which in turn seems to wreck the purpose for Deep Elements. Wouldn’t Surge of Power be a better, albeit squishier, choice?

In my opinion, Blizzard needs to give us a baseline wall, and not have it tied to the elemental… but that’s another story.

What do you guys think about these apparent contradictions, and what are your arguments for taking these picks - arguments that don’t rely on Murlok?

1 Like
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DRE is more overrall damage by a considerable margin. It synergizes with primordial wave and the reset conduit so with even halfway decent rng you are just aoe-lava bursting everybody. Windspeakers is better single target for sure, but for every empowered lava burst windspeaker throws on a single target DRE can throw 6+

Primal elementalist is a must because astral shift is absolute garbage and without more defensive cooldowns elemental just flops. It flops with P.E. pretty often but without P.E. its just made of glass.

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Okay so what am I missing? I have 60% mastery, and it hardly procs. Maybe 1-2 times per match in 3s. When I look at dmg meters, Windspeaker does more, as I always get more overall lava bursts, which = more maelstrom, which = more earth shocks. Not sure what I’m doing wrong with DRE… :frowning:

Is there a particular stat that will make it proc more or something?

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Without knowing more about your games i cant specifiically say, but things to make sure…

  1. flame shock everything that moves. Pets, other elementals, as many of the other team’s players as possible. More flame shocks is always better.

  2. DRE is more about dampening than anytbing else. If games are ending under 5 minutes youll have to restrategize and fogure out a way to stretch them out.

  3. what are your teammates? Dre is going to work best with a warlock in some type of l/s/x variant. That gives your flameshock added cover from dispels, fear dr category for peels, a lock for the other team to attack, gateway to escape, healthstone to survive… it can work with other classes but l/s/x is the mosr successful DRE comp.

  4. if you queue into a team with a prot paladin on it, youll do zero. Literally zero damage. Prot pally can dispel your flameshocks with almost no repercussions and no flame shocks = BIG SAD.

  5. make sure your “GO” is getting off properly. The important cds are fire ele out, skyfury down, primordial wave, echoing shock.

Ideally you have 3+ flame shocks out, primodial wave, echoing shock, hardcasted lava burst, then use a lava surge proc immediatelt after. Should net you 6+ lava bursts all at once (before mastery procs) and throwing out that many meatballs gives you a very high chance of proccing DRE.

That combo should be available every 45s but if you get primordial wave resets, you can use that for a “mini go” more frequently.

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Huh? This is Ion’s crazy braindead burst meta. There are no dampening matches. A ret paladin, MM hunter or some other burst class will either have killed us, or we’ll have bursted them down. Since this isn’t the case, wouldn’t that make DRE even worse of a pick?

I usually run with an affliction lock and a priest, but the healer varies.

I’ve done everything here you’ve said, but it rarely procs DRE, and certainly never on the first go. Granted, I sometimes dump Echoing shock, because (1), I hate it. It’s a boring ability. And (2) the on-demand maelstrom and haste /mastery buff of Elemental Blast seems infinitely better. Willing to accept I could be wrong about that one though. Other than that one spell which I only sometimes change, I do everything else you mentioned, and I still get only a few procs of DRE.

So I’m still not sure why it’s not going off more? I don’t get it. Is it tied to mastery? I have 60% now, but what if I stack more? Haste?

Edit: I just thought, maybe it’s my conduit? The reset one is only at 226 at the moment. Could that be why? I guess I could upgrade it, I just hate Zereth Mortis…

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226 conduit will definitely be part of the cause.

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Dampening is definitely achievable, especially since playing with lock the other team will go on them most games and they have crazy survivability.

I’d strongly recommend playing echoing because your kill windows are during primordial wave, no other time and echoing makes those windows a lot stronger.

Don’t play ele blast, if you get kicked on it you get locked on all 3 schools.

DRE sometimes won’t proc that often but when it does it can one shot someone, and even if it doesn’t it puts a lot of unscripted pressure on the enemy team which can desync their cooldowns.

DRE also puts pressure on more than one target, which is great for playing with a lock because either one of you can randomly kill any player on the other team at any time, and that is hard to play against