The only issue, aside from bugs, with the mark is something that would have been an entirely non-issue if we had shadowdance still instead of 2 vanishes.
I could call this common sense too, shrug. Agree to disagree I suppose.
I don’t disagree that Shadowdance could fix it for sin. Like you say, that’s common sense.
The point is that there are other ways to fix it too.
The point is that sin and sub are vastly different in how many mark applications they have available to them.
Not sure where we disagree - other than you think that the devs removing something doesn’t necessarily imply that the devs thought it should be removed - and it was removed for some other, less-than-obvious reason (feel free to expand on this btw).
In either event…yes - we can just agree to disagree (although I’m not sure where we disagree).
I was trying to jump in and calm things down between yourself and Xæthron. Xæthron I respect from their past posts. But you made a good point;
“I mean you’re gonna have some number of players who like things and some number of players who don’t like things. Most people that don’t like things are going to want them changed.”
I just don’t really think the assumption the devs took it out cause they agree with you it “feels better,” is based on evidence. It’s a logical conclusion to jump to, but it’s still a jump if we in fact don’t have a first hand account of why they did it. I’m not a developer or even a software dude, so my ability to guess at alternative possibilities is limited but here’s a shot;
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Maybe there was a technical issue - look at the stealth bugs right now. Maybe it was ok for sub but were exaccerbating other bugs and it was a judgement call to remove it?
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Maybe there was a general directive to increase distinction between classes that was applied to more than just rogue - and yet not made with rogues specifically in mind.
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It might have had something to do with the eventual change to remove CDR from Vanish just recently.
The point is, we don’t know what we don’t know. And while your guess is a good, rational guess. It’s still a guess. And like you say, Shadowdance would fix it for sin. Would giving it back to sin hurt anything else? Even with sub having plenty of access to it…so what? Is there a good reason to NOT give it back other than just hoping the devs have a plan?
When do we get to say the plan isn’t working?
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Well, with zero communication between Blizzard and the playerbase, it’s kind of tough - and assumptions have to be made. Back in the day we had “community leaders” that ran discord servers and communicated with the devs, and relayed that information. Now, most class discords are full of people that stream other games, re-rolled to other classes, and/or have otherwise moved on. It’s just a losing battle. There’s nothing possible to do, but assume.
Also, we’ve said “the plan isn’t working” since Deathstalker has been released for sin. It’s the communication channels that seem to be breaking down…which largely leaves the playerbase (especially the enthusiastic ones) in that state of assumptions. There’s just nowhere else for those players to be.
I think your idea of “traditionally” is different than mine. I’ve been playing since vanilla/original/classic, whatever it’s called these days.
The introduction of Master Assassin is what started this. Back then, it was supposed to give a little boost to our openers. Players realized this would allow Vanish to be used as a DPS cool down. Being a 2 minute cool down made it a reasonable thing to do. Up until Dragonflight, talents were occasionally added that made this more impactful. But didn’t really affect our rotations.
With Dragonflight, Shadow Dance was given to all three specs and Blizzard doubled down on making “stealth” an integral part of the rotation. This was bad design and not very many really enjoyed it. Sure, we made it work and some players did well with it. But it never felt right and has led to these convoluted rotations we now have.
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It doesnt even apply if the target is not your “active” target. So if you use action targeting and your dead target is still targeted…and you stealth and ambush a new target thats auto targeted it doesnt get deathstalkers mark applied.
This is also a pain especially for mob packs or running around in the open world.
I agree that Assassination + Deathstalker would be great if Mark could apply outside of stealth. Perhaps from a Blindside Ambush (as Meatrack mentioned) or from a 5 point rupture. Something…
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This is why Rogues in beta were picking double vanish. You get Subterfuge in case you blunder your opener and then get 2 vanishes because you are never going to able to open on trash unless the tank has a neural link with your brain.
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You can apply it. Max CP Envenom, and if the target dies you can still reapply. Sadly it’s still silly requirement to build up max CP.
I’m still adjusting to rogue since didn’t play it a while. I’m trying to have more then 500K ST spec, with not ideal gear
A max CP Envenom only reapplies it if you have the Darkest Night buff. If you don’t have the buff, and weren’t able to apply Deathstalker’s Mark to begin with, you cannot apply it without using Vanish, which has a 2-minute cooldown. (And an extra charge if you talent for it.)
If the tank pulls when you’re not in stealth, you can’t apply it without burning Vanish.
If the mob does a burst of damage before you can apply it, you can’t apply it without burning Vanish.
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To be clear, you have 30 seconds to reapply to a new target and MUST be max cp.
Also, if your max cp Envenom that is intended to refresh Deathstalker’s Mark is the killing blow, say goodbye to your mark. It’s gone and will not be applied to the next target.
Very frustrating hero talent to play with. 
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Being I’m a nelf, would this work:
shadowmeld *or any other removal of combat ability
stealth ability
ambush
It is frustrating as hell. I did wasted so many openers because they pull before i enter stealth. Hey but blizzard is still addressing and buffing paladins that are already broken while rogues should get some tuning and adjusting to be on par with other dps
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