Ok, so question-- have there been any new DK's raised by Bolvar or his Ebon Blade buddies since WOTLK ended? Trying to work out a new character's TRP3 and need some info on the current generation of DK's.
I think the only Bolvar-era DKs that have been raised canonically are the current Horsemen. By that logic I don't think it's too far out of the realm of possibility that there are more, but I'm skeptical that Bolvar's Ebon Blade are out making a whole lot of them if that's the case.
Wrong beginning in Legion Death Knights are actively creating new recruits. You do so during the Legion DK questline when you unlock the "recruit generic soldiers".
11/02/2018 08:04 PMPosted by TypheousWrong beginning in Legion Death Knights are actively creating new recruits. You do so during the Legion DK questline when you unlock the "recruit generic soldiers".
This is a grand misunderstanding of a questline tying in with a game mechanic.
Those troops are you, as the Deathlord, collecting existing Third Generation Death Knights together to knit into a group that'll go out on your behest.
Just like Geomancers, Acolytes, Druids of the Claw, etc. etc. - you're taking existing units and simply merging them into a group.
"New" DKs (see: Broken Shore, Nathrezeim's failed attempt at a new Scourge-like plague) were failed experiments on the Legion's own part during the expansion.
In short: the only ones raised were the Four Horsemen, and it was only accomplished with the aid of the artifacts.
Third Gen or bust, as no Fourth has been confirmed.
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11/02/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Sparx11/02/2018 08:04 PMPosted by TypheousWrong beginning in Legion Death Knights are actively creating new recruits. You do so during the Legion DK questline when you unlock the "recruit generic soldiers".
This is a grand misunderstanding of a questline tying in with a game mechanic.
Those troops are you, as the Deathlord, collecting existing Third Generation Death Knights together to knit into a group that'll go out on your behest.
Just like Geomancers, Acolytes, Druids of the Claw, etc. etc. - you're taking existing units and simply merging them into a group.
"New" DKs (see: Broken Shore, Nathrezeim's failed attempt at a new Scourge-like plague) were failed experiments on the Legion's own part during the expansion.
In short: the only ones raised were the Four Horsemen, and it was only accomplished with the aid of the artifacts.
Third Gen or bust, as no Fourth has been confirmed.
The quest says, verbatim:
Korgaz Deadaxe has arrived at Acherus to aid us in recruiting additional death knights. He has an eye for potential.
I cannot emphasize enough that it is of the utmost importance that we replenish our numbers during the battle with the Burning Legion.
Which does imply these death knights are, in some way, new. They're replentishing lost numbers, so at the very least these are not simply Ebon Blade knights. They need training. They're new trainees.
Their origin remains ambiguous. Are they already undead Scourge? Are they living death knights? Are they simply a bunch of Ebon Blade who got lost? Who knows...
To be honest I think it's reasonable to say that more have been risen. Death Knights certainly have the aptitude to raise undead, and the Ebon Blade has at least one confirmed necromancer. But at the end of the day, we can't say for sure either way.
11/02/2018 08:27 PMPosted by SaresthaWhich does imply these death knights are, in some way, new. They're replentishing lost numbers, so at the very least these are not simply Ebon Blade knights. They need training. They're new trainees.
Their origin remains ambiguous. Are they already undead Scourge? Are they living death knights? Are they simply a bunch of Ebon Blade who got lost? Who knows...
To be honest I think it's reasonable to say that more have been risen. Death Knights certainly have the aptitude to raise undead, and the Ebon Blade has at least one confirmed necromancer. But at the end of the day, we can't say for sure either way.
The main deal against that lies on Death Knights only being able to be raised in such a powerful state by the Lich King or an appointed Lich - a mere Necromancer would raise nothing short of fodder.
Third Gen might've been classed as cannon fodder by Arthas, but they're a cut above the rest for a reason, and it's been stated multiple times that non-Lich Necromancers can only raise Ghouls, Gheists and lesser Undead, which.. basically just further confuses the issue.
Further conflicting is the fact that the troop type Korgaz is directly responsible for recruitment purposes are veterans.
Ebon Ravagers are Third Generation Death Knights with the following description:
"Hardened veterans, Ebon Ravagers have survived many wars, slain many enemies, and are the epitome of the Ebon Blade's fiercest soldiers".
Which, at least to me, brings two conclusions:
1) The questtext is read in the incorrect context - "Speak with Korgaz when you are ready to recruit additional death knights." means you're recruiting these existing veterans into the aforementioned groups.
2) Blizzard did a Blizzard again, and the questtext is not out of context.
I'm personally leaning very heavily on #1 for a few different reasons.
"Recruitment" is not a correlating term to "new". It simply means "to enlist someone (into a force)". You're essentially recruiting these soldiers and conscripting them to a specific service as the Deathlord.
((because I worry about lost context, I'm meaning it as in you can "recruit a marine into a service" type deal. you can absolutely recruit a non-soldier and train them to BE a marine, but the former context is what I'm talking about RE: this quest))
"Replenishing our numbers" does lean a bit more towards the "they're new" angle, but again, it's seemingly speaking on the replenishment of the Broken Isles taskforces, not as a whole number.
Greetings, Deathlord. It is an honor to serve you.
I have been keeping an eye on the casualties of the Alliance and Horde upon the battlefield. Supply is limited, but there are some very promising prospects...
-Korgaz Deadaxe.
It is made very clear that these Death Knights are being reanimated from the corpses of fallen Alliance and Horde Soldiers. We may need a powerful Lich or Necromancer to create new Death Knights, but the Ebon Blade has one better. they have the Lich King. With him as their ally, they can raise as many Death Knights as they require.
They also raise numerous new Frost Wyrms and other Undead Dragons over the course of the expansion.
In addition to what has already been said, Ebon Ravagers aren't what Korgaz Deadaxe normally recruits—he recruits Ebon Knights. He only recruits Ebon Ravagers if you purchase an optional order hall upgrade.
The Ravagers are more powerful than the Knights, as they're veterans unlike the freshly-raised Knights.
The Ravagers are more powerful than the Knights, as they're veterans unlike the freshly-raised Knights.
11/02/2018 09:40 PMPosted by AntrezGreetings, Deathlord. It is an honor to serve you.
I have been keeping an eye on the casualties of the Alliance and Horde upon the battlefield. Supply is limited, but there are some very promising prospects...
-Korgaz Deadaxe.
It is made very clear that these Death Knights are being reanimated from the corpses of fallen Alliance and Horde Soldiers. We may need a powerful Lich or Necromancer to create new Death Knights, but the Ebon Blade has one better. they have the Lich King. With him as their ally, they can raise as many Death Knights as they require.
They also raise numerous new Frost Wyrms and other Undead Dragons over the course of the expansion.
Bol'var has never been confirmed to be raising new Death Knights, which essentially implies that someone else'd be doing it, if at all.
We raise two undead dragons through the expansion, though it's implied we get more due to the Ebon Frostwyrm unit, for sure.
11/02/2018 10:08 PMPosted by MitnarIn addition to what has already been said, Ebon Ravagers aren't what Korgaz Deadaxe normally recruits—he recruits Ebon Knights. He only recruits Ebon Ravagers if you purchase an optional order hall upgrade.
The Ravagers are more powerful than the Knights, as they're veterans unlike the freshly-raised Knights.
Eck, wrong quote threw me off, you're totally right - but I can't find the description on the Ebon Knight unit. Unfortunately it'd take me bloody 24 hours to swap the Hall Upgrade, so if you could nab that somehow (Googling has provided no help), that'd greatly be appreciated.
With Korgaz's closing comment, definitely more ground on the "raising more Knights" deal, but that still leaves a lot to open confusion.
Are these classified as Third Generation DKs?
Why isn't there a successor to someone like Gravewalker Gie to better get across the point that they're raising recently deceased soldiers? (heck, why no Allied Races if we're able to do this?)
Is the Deathlord's artifact the catalyst in these reanimations considering the sort of power necessary (as it's implied Arthas' presence/power was necessary during Wrath/Light's Hope) to raise them to Greater Undead standards, aka. DK standards?
The Necromancer we conscript is a "powerful ally", but ultimately only raises the likes of Ghouls and (IIRC) Abominations (ala questline for Rottgut). Generally the Necromancers under Arthas worked in pairs to apparently accomplish Greater Undead raising.
... My head hurts.
It's Bolvar, not Bol'var.
Also I'm not sure what you're confused about, it's pretty explicit.
Also I'm not sure what you're confused about, it's pretty explicit.
11/02/2018 10:53 PMPosted by TypheousIt's Bolvar, not Bol'var.
Also I'm not sure what you're confused about, it's pretty explicit.
Hey, you hang around Blood Elves all day and try telling me that you don't slip in an apostrophe on accident outta habit.
The major deal behind the confusion is that this is never touched upon.
It's delegated to this one particular strip of dialogue when, historically, it's always been such a massive deal regarding raising Greater Undead.
Historically as well, Necromancers have needed some sort of external catalyst to raise the Third Generation under a governing hand.
It also brings questions regarding Blizzard's stance on Allied Race DKs, claiming that "they haven't been raising new corpses at all, ergo it wouldn't fit", or somesuch to that claim's like.
I'm just gonna leave it at this:
We don't have official confirmation of a Fourth Generation of Death Knights, nor do we have official confirmation on this sect of apparent Thirds.
But there's enough in lore to take off it that more Third Generation DKs are being created, we just don't know if they're able to post-Legion because we have no idea if the Artifacts in the hands of the Deathlord were an attributing catalyst or not.
11/02/2018 11:12 PMPosted by Sparx11/02/2018 10:53 PMPosted by TypheousIt's Bolvar, not Bol'var.
Also I'm not sure what you're confused about, it's pretty explicit.
Hey, you hang around Blood Elves all day and try telling me that you don't slip in an apostrophe on accident outta habit.
The major deal behind the confusion is that this is never touched upon.
It's delegated to this one particular strip of dialogue when, historically, it's always been such a massive deal regarding raising Greater Undead.
Historically as well, Necromancers have needed some sort of external catalyst to raise the Third Generation under a governing hand.
It also brings questions regarding Blizzard's stance on Allied Race DKs, claiming that "they haven't been raising new corpses at all, ergo it wouldn't fit", or somesuch to that claim's like.
I'm just gonna leave it at this:
We don't have official confirmation of a Fourth Generation of Death Knights, nor do we have official confirmation on this sect of apparent Thirds.
But there's enough in lore to take off it that more Third Generation DKs are being created, we just don't know if they're able to post-Legion because we have no idea if the Artifacts in the hands of the Deathlord were an attributing catalyst or not.
The Deathlord literally raises a dead dragon into becoming a wyrm. None of the artifacts directly deal with aiding the raising of undead. Even Apocalypse is about disease. We're empowered by the Lich King to do this, Death Knights are the current middle leadership of the Scourge.
But we do have confirmation.
In two quests related to recruiting DKs, it's explicitly stated that we're replenishing our numbers with casualties from the Alliance and Horde. I won't repost the quote because it's already been quoted.
The concept of 'generations' is fan-created to make it easier to refer to a specific type of DK, since there are so many. We won't get more official confirmation of a 4th generation than something that actually took place in game. I just wouldn't wait for them to use the term 'generation'.
Whether you want to call it 4th generation or not is up to you as a fan. Personally, I interpret these DKs as being the same as 3rd generation in terms of what they can do, but their story is so different that I prefer to refer to them as another generation. The terminology is not something I would force on anyone; it's really up to you.
Now, why can the Ebon Blade suddenly raise death knights? Have they always had this ability? If it was possible to raise 'greater undead' (whatever you want to call things that aren't ghouls) this easily, wouldn't Sylvanas pursuing this somehow? Are we still doing this or did we stop after Legion?
There are a lot of unanswered questions. It's annoying and confusing, I agree. But that doesn't mean we can deny that they were raising Alliance and Horde casualties as new death knights to fight the Legion.
In two quests related to recruiting DKs, it's explicitly stated that we're replenishing our numbers with casualties from the Alliance and Horde. I won't repost the quote because it's already been quoted.
The concept of 'generations' is fan-created to make it easier to refer to a specific type of DK, since there are so many. We won't get more official confirmation of a 4th generation than something that actually took place in game. I just wouldn't wait for them to use the term 'generation'.
Whether you want to call it 4th generation or not is up to you as a fan. Personally, I interpret these DKs as being the same as 3rd generation in terms of what they can do, but their story is so different that I prefer to refer to them as another generation. The terminology is not something I would force on anyone; it's really up to you.
Now, why can the Ebon Blade suddenly raise death knights? Have they always had this ability? If it was possible to raise 'greater undead' (whatever you want to call things that aren't ghouls) this easily, wouldn't Sylvanas pursuing this somehow? Are we still doing this or did we stop after Legion?
There are a lot of unanswered questions. It's annoying and confusing, I agree. But that doesn't mean we can deny that they were raising Alliance and Horde casualties as new death knights to fight the Legion.
Yeah, I'm just going to go with Viyk being a generation 3.5 (or whatever one would call them) DK since it's at least heavily implied through Legion that more are being raised to replace those that have died since WOTLK. I mean, there are plot holes all over with the how and when, I guess, but that could be said for almost anything regarding Blizzard storytelling.
Anyway, since it is mentioned and somewhat established, that works for me.
Anyway, since it is mentioned and somewhat established, that works for me.
If it hasn't been mentioned already, Eastern Plaguelands contain a quest where the Scourge remnants are going to perform a ritual to turn one of the Paladin Pals into a Death Knight.
It's been established that new Death Knights can be made, but it's a time consuming process.
It's been established that new Death Knights can be made, but it's a time consuming process.
I forgot about that quest. Maybe that means a more organized power (Bolvar or the Ebon Blade) could do it without as much effort and with better efficiency?