Cleaving strikes on RW as an aura is definitely not the solution. Fix FSC (2 runes ~25% dmg increase), nerf cleaving strikes to 1 additional target, and call it a day. ST spell should not be the primary spell used in AoE.
2 Likes
It is for most classes though, even warrior whirlwinds to get cleaving strikes then proceeds to ST for 4 spells.
Shadow priest set up link and ST
BM cleaves naturally for x amount of time after they use multi shot
Ret ST and dumps resource on aoe
I can go on, but really no classes have a spammable aoe button that overtakes their entire ST rotation, we should not want this and we should not advocate this, it will only bring frost into the weird niche situations where we have a aoe build and a st build, while one of the best and strongest things about frost is that their build does both.
It just sounds like garbage gameplay. “oo 3 mobs i press this other button that fills the same roll as obliterate over and over and over again.” Just advocating for button bloat and no gameplay change.
FSC needs to do something the current oblit cleave doesn’t to make it a good change. Just bringing that button back to life for the sake of like thematically having an aoe button is a terrible idea. FSC becoming like whirlwind and give the next 3-4 oblits a cleave would be cool, making it a cd that does aoe damage would be cool, why… WHY… would you want another button that does literally what we already have minus death and decay. Can create ways to get rid of DnD without adding weird button bloat like FSC in the way you are presenting it.
Also lets say they do your change… what does it fix? Everyone is so obsessed with the dnd cleaving strikes but fixing that does not do anything to frost dk’s real issues. ST, changing targets, movement oriented fights if playing breath etc etc. Everyone should be focused on razorice apllications and unleashed frenzy/icy talons resetting during movement and target changes. Make soulreaper viable for frost so we can stop running abom limb. THOSE are frost issues, cleaving strikes is just QoL.
QoL on cleaving strikes can happen for aoe situations and M+ without bringing back a dead spell for the sake of bringing it back and fixing literally nothing except making it easier to cleave in pug groups with pug tanks. Even give DnD movement where it follows targets similar to ravager idk theres a million better suggestions than bringing back a dead spell/another button for the sake of having a different button to press.
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As if spamming oblit in single and multi target is better? 
Morphing cleaving strikes into a character centered aura removes all skill expression. Where as leaving cleaving strikes in gives choice in scenarios with two targets for bosses or potentially a priority target allowing you to funnel damage over using FSC.
Buffing FSC gives the spec more depth, more choice, and a slightly more varied rotation.
We do not need another dead ability. Aura based cleaving strikes will just dumb down the rotation even more.
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I don’t think we should do an aura based cleaving strikes… never said that. I have said multiple times on here I like dnd cleave because of skill expression. I think adding a 3rd charge, DnD effect lasts another 3 seconds, and like 2-3 incrased aoe on dnd is all that it needs. Don’t think FSC needs to be brought back at all. Actually I am pretty sure you have argued the opposite when I stated I like current frost.
Again though. Cleaving strikes, dnd, FSC ----- THESE are not frost’s issues IDK why everyone is so focused on it. Our cleave is currently amazing don’t really even want it changed. Sucks with pug tanks sometimes in M+ but then again… skill expression, put ur dnd down right place, save and burst after the mobs are done moving etc etc.
2 Likes
^^^^ this guys onto something
You’re on to absolutely nothing if you don’t understand the problem with cleaving strikes and DnD. It has nothing to do with the damage being good or bad. It’s entirely based around the fact that about ~42% of your dungeon overall (closer to 66% of your damage during DnD windows) is dependent on multiple external factors you cannot control. That is BAD design from a mechanics view point.
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How is it bad that a large portion of your cleave damage is dependent on how you set up your cleave… I don’t get what you’re saying.
So if your idea goes through and we change to FSC then 40-60% of of our cleave damage is tied to FSC how is that any healthier? It’s more mindless and doesn’t go on floor for tank to move out of? But its the same idea that a large chunk of dungeon damage tied to a singular ability, that will scale weird depending on tank pulling 2, 3, or 5 mobs at once. You’re proposing to keep dnd for 2 target. But now scaling wise FSC will need to out scale for 3 targets, and not be too strong on 5 targets. It will still have an aoe range and may not hit all targets if theyre loosely clumped and tank positioning will still affect your damage.
IDK FSC fixes nothing about the actual issues with frost, just a QoL for movement oriented cleave fights.
Address razorice, buff soulreaper for frost. Make IT and UF last longer, or just axe them completely and put the damage elsewhere. Buff rime so it actually feels good on more than one target. Why is DnD and FSC such a big deal to people. Not our core issues at alllllll. Why are we trying to rework to get exactly the same thing we have but with a different face.
There are many solutions to cleave, bringing back FSC to bring back FSC and end up with exactly what we have but a different button is a joke. Need to focus on real issues.
Edit: again people don’t realize that during legion these forums were filled with ways to get rid of FSC because NO ONE LIKE IT. and now everyone wants to bring it back. community is actually crazy.
2 Likes
For one the thread is about DnD and cleave, so no need to muddy it further with rework ideas, there are multiple other threads on those topics.
The dependencies aren’t how you set the cleave up. You can setup the most perfect DnD so that your tank will theoretically kite backwards through it for the duration. That is, exhaustingly again, NOT the issue.
Example one: ground aoes RNG you out of your tanks predicated path, you have little to no control over this. You’re forced out of DnD, potentially recast, burn globals moving, or both.
Example two: you setup DnD so your tank should in most cases kite through it if they’re to move, they choose to go the opposite way or move to pull another pack. You’re forced out, lose multiple globals, waste another GCD to recast if it’s even remotely worth it. And now you’re forced into the feedback loop for delaying anything having to do with pillar (like any of these scenarios).
Additionally any random group displacements via party members or erratic add movement (dashes, teleports, etc…) create the same or similar issues.
Acknowledging the fact that FDK is highly reliant on uptime (you yourself ironically stated this), further pushing FDK into that hole by forcing it into a circle to do its damage is BAD, most notably because of those external movement factors you do not control nor can you predict.
Blizzard themselves have even admitted in a form that this is a poor design choice in the mage rework regarding rune of power.
There is nothing wrong with buffing FSC to fill the role of rune spender 3+ target counts when buffed to use 2 runes. Its frequency would be the same as oblit, and it would also spread some of the damage profile outside of pillar. Provides choice, provides sensible rotational changes, and doesn’t further bury frost into relying on a singular ability to do any damage.
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It just creates another button that does literally the same thing for no reason or gain. You will still have issues where you have to move and FSC is out of range, still need to use pillar to get the most out of it. Still will lose damage from pillar and FSC when you move out of ground targeted spells.
FSC does not fix any of this… the issue isnt that you lose damage when you have to move out of DnD, the issue isnt DnD… the issue is HOW MUCH damage you lose during ANY MOVEMENT, again from what I was saying. We have too many mechanics as is right now that require constant uptime, pillar is becoming better with haste and crit where the CD really is only 20-30 seconds but if we can not hit a mob we can not crit for the cd to lower. If DnD had more charges to replace, faster cd, larger width etc it wouldnt be as detrimental, what is is that you lose MANY multipliers from passive buffs from not spending runic power in the last 6 seconds.
IT and UF are HUGE damage modifiers that fall off the moment you cant hit something. Razorice is another multiplier that takes forever to build back up when lost due to movement. Remorseless Winter falling off due to not being able to spend runes to upkeep gathering storm. Pillar CD not being shortened because you can not hit targets. Breath has even more issues with movement from all of these. FSC fixes nothing… but gives us another skill that will feel terrible the moment we have to move to a mechanic, or from ground targeted spells or tank has mobs split and we can not hit all targets with FSC.
If you think i am wrong then you just do not understand what is going on at all. It isnt dnd, it isnt fsc. It’s all these crazy multipliers that require constant uptime. Doesn’t matter what skill you plug in.
Most people do not even know how many multipliers there are, you need weakauras to track them. Tracking all of these things through addons is another huge issue. I wonder all the time how many frost dks tank an incredible ammount of their damage because they’re overlapping a new RW with 10 stack storm early because everyone is like use this button on cd.
also I understand very well and hope you do too that everyone loses damage from movement, we lose stacking buffs and multipliers that no other class has to the extent that we do, that just fall off very quickly the moment we can’t attack anything.
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Not only are contradicting yourself, but I guess you don’t look at the damage breakdown in a log or sim for that matter. The fact that you essentially lose 66% of your damage the second you move out of DnD for any reason is a HUGE issue. The fact that you drop modifiers is so far beyond what’s important, let alone RI duration is irrelevant. Losing, wasting or missing any casts of obliterate murders your damage more than any modifier, spell, buff etc…, you immediately cut your obliterate damage by 66% by casting oblit and stepping out of DnD.
I’ve never seen someone try to push goal posts so far let alone add an extra 30 while not understanding the issue that’s being discussed.
Show me how you are sim-ing for specific movement out of dnd ill wait. like actually because you cant sim that through any normal tools, ill wait. please show me. I started this with you because you seemed like someone that would get it on here but that sim/log comment makes me instantly regret talking to you lol, such a completely left field exaggerated almost lie/tool to try to discredit me when you literally cant. You can’t sim those things, you can’t see time spent out of dnd on logs vs time spent in it while spell is on effect on floor and mobs are present. You CAN sim movement… but that goes with what I was saying, uptime of buffs, pillar etc. Any number is not directly linked to dnd but everything that movement makes a dk lose(what i have been saying). Like what… How about sim-ing how much of that was user error and how much was mechanic dnd based fault. Casters loose most of if not all their damage the moment they move, should they all be reworked? movement hurts classes get over it! How often do you place a dnd and miss more than a second or 2 of it? Get better then. Are you missing entire DnD’s that would equate to 66% damage loss? Wat an incredible exaggeration that number is. What a load of poo this whole comment you made is.
Frost scythe will lose just as much dmg the moment you have to move because of buffs, lose pillar window, and come back, remorseless drops etc. same thing. Don’t be ignorant. I am not contradicting myself you just think the issue is all tied into the ability the spender, I am saying its actually everything that gives that spender damage. and you’re like nope we move we lose damage from dnd. LIKE YA THATS WHAT IM SAYING YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHY WE ARE LOSING DAMAGE, its not from dnd, its from how frost dk is set up right now, buffs ontop of buffs, ontop of pillar, ontop of weird scaling that all dissapears when we move.
You’re trying to buy new tires for a bike when the bike’s frame is broken and doesnt work.
I do not understand how you do not understand or how anyone does not understand, that all spells and skills will feel bad the moment we have to move, and we will lose an incredible amount of damage the moment we move due to buffs, pillar, etc etc etc.
Whatever, continue you and the communities crusade on FSC. I’ll just bookmark this so that when it happens and does not fix the issue and you are all advocating for something else we can remind ourselves.
out here saying you lose 66% of damage when you move out of dnd but like dude you lose 100% of your damage the moment you dont attack anything what a loaded number
I mean can you not do simple math? 3 hits while in DnD, 1 hit when you’re not. I’ll wait.
Regarding sims and logs I’m talking about the damage break down from actually hitting within those DnD windows vs not being in DnD; you don’t have to sim it to even understand, it’s literally hitting 1 target vs hitting 3.
It is a PAINFULLY, simple thing to understand.
again you lose 100% of damage the moment you cant hit anything, EVERY class does. 66% number is loaded and just irrelevant
you will lose 100% of FSC damage when you move and cant hit targets with FSC but I am not using that number because what a dumb number to use… like your 66% number…
PAINFULLY easy to understand that
Edit: if there is 3 targets and you have to move and FSC only hits one target, you lose 66% of damage on FSC… maybe we should think before we throw numbers around
Are you kelliste in disguise?
As oblit, the majority of your damage pretty much resolves around maximizing the casts/hits. Being reliant on movement you cannot control or predict based on sitting in a circle is bad, for obvious reasons. Modifiers, buffs, and anything else be damned. Missing one of those hits is infinitely more detrimental to damage.
Aura for cleaving strikes removes player agency, FSC provides choice and some semblance of skill expressions above than just a flat aura. This thread is exclusively about that. It really is that simple.
I am all for DnD not being a thing for Frost DK and baselining Frostscythe as a runic power dump for our cleave.
Put Obliterate as a buff and have it work the same way it does now where it buffs Frostscythe and Focus on Frost Strike being Single Target and the main striker as Frost DK that buffs off Obliterate buff.
Remove pillar of Frost (don’t need it if you have Obliteration as a buff)
Have the frost tree so you can spec ST, Cleave melee or AoE Remoreseless Winter w/ BoS
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Why make FSC an RP spender? That’s what GA does.
Oblit + FS are the rune/RP single target abilities, and FSC + GA are their AoE counterparts.
Oblit cleave and/or FSC just need to be tuned to the point where FSC is competitive enough to be an appealing choice.
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That’s just a worse GA then.
Obliterate doesn’t need more damage baked into it, it needs less.
Because, for some ridiculous reason, some people just want to press only Obliterate and nothing else on Frost, like the MoP - WoD version where you ignore other buttons and just press Obliterate [or Howling Blast] is somehow their “ideal version” of Frost.
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If they want to keep it a castable ability instead of a permanent aura to avoid ez mode, just make us refresh it every 20 seconds but let it follow us.
Nerfed I have a good analogy for you.
You’re a guy who bought a Porsche in the 80’s and really loved his Porsche. You drove it all these years and it treated you well. Here comes 2023 and paladins are a new brand called Mclaren and they are using all the best new technology, but since you love your Porsche you are stubborn and dont want to change.
Unfortunately the 2023 Mclaren is doing everything better and more efficiently than your 1980 Porsche that means so much to you. Time to let it go bud. Your posts are tiresome. Nobody wants your 1980 Porsche even though you will argue til your last breath that its the best. We all want 2023 efficiency and all the bells and whistles that come with new technology. We want turbos and the newest 4 wheel drive traction control systems. We want sequential transmissions instead of a manual.
Give it up already bud.