Yeah, that’s what i said : It could, in some rare cases, be better in pvp, but that’s it.
Yes it was nice, because the landing hit was an empowered Eviscerate and it benefited from all passives, but Secret Technique replaced it, which means that if they went back and gave Rogues DfA instead of Secret Technique, the damage would be the same, we’d have a weak DfA and nobody would be happy ; It could do a bit more damage than Secret Technique because of the lost time on the animation but in the end it would be similar.
And when i say that it was nice to have a big empowered Eviscerate at the landing of DfA, i mean that it was nice to some people, personnaly, i thought (and still think) that it was awful.
They made the spec boring to play but with some huge crits on finisher so that all the monkeys who were too bad at the game would be finally able to play Sub and be amazed at the big numbers on their screens.
They destroyed the identity of the spec, Cata / MoP Subtlety had a stronger identity, was far more challenging and interesting to play and it was amazing on a lot of encounters.
By default DFA is better than secret tech for PVP in many scenarios because of the mini immunity and three dimension of terrain it can circumvent or negate knockoffs/ports from other classes. DFA has PVP modifiers that still have it in a nerfed state while only recent is Secret tech has been addressed for PVE and PVP damage tuning.
Still a niche use, in most case, Secret Technique is superior.
Yes, that was pretty cool, i’m quite sad that they removed it (and didn’t gave it back later), but it’s not tied to the way you play the spec / class and you can still do it while using some items.
I do not think DFA is a niche use IMVHO. Big reason why is that when they un nerfed the damage modifiers in PVP is started to be used more and that trend will continue. Meanwhile Secret tech will be further nerfed in PVE and PVP as War within draws closer. Many of us warned about putting all the eggs in the secret tech basket in the DF beta feedback threads.
Legion beta was longer but the problem was that they were dead set on a lot of narrow minded design decisions when it came to class design, gearing and RNG drops of legendaries early on.
DFA still “can” do damage, its just not going to be an overtuned ability by pressing it akin to DF ssn 1 Secret Technique.
Finality 2/2 for 20% pvp+ well timed macabre + other finisher focused stuff and flagellation etc but all of that to make DFA “do damage” is a meme.
Also agreed with Ogre on NOT putting all our eggs into one cd making or breaking our class for performance.
DFA aint coming back as the push back is due to people falling through floors and other stuff by irresponsible timing and boss mechanics happening etc. Secret Technique is all that will ever exist most likely as a choice node is not in the cards and over saturation of more cds “we need” to do X also isn’t healthy.
We have a fine line we are treading and at least our devs have that in mind and do monitor these things from their posts across the forums. A nudge in the opposite direction but not full swing was wise and hopefully continues to be the decision instead of overloading cds or we will continue to follow the nerf cycle because people trinket sap in 2024 then go to the forums about it while their team mates did nothing at all to stop anything.
An emphasis on core abilities via talents is all that is likely to happen and should happen for balance concerns. We shouldn’t “need” to pick multiple cds to be effective and doing crap all outside of that. The “one shot” mentality cycle needs to come to an end so we are no longer tuned around it.
Current iteration is still the best we have had in years but legion can go away eternally for sure. This “reworked” style is far better than season 1 and season 2 however we are paying for the sins of tea spam finality and x cd use. Those of us who didn’t , pay the price as a result and so we find ourselves in an odd limbo which will have to unravel itself in the next tuning i suppose (maybe april?).
Hopefully small incremental improvements to eviscerate base and other core abilities such as gloomblade / backstab and shadowstrike are the vehicle instead of over saturating cds once again as history will repeat itself if not. Regardless of how individuals feel, being balanced around cds is not healthy or fun.
I have been doing testing since they un nerfed DFA and it does damage. For a spec with low uptime like Assassination it is a god send.
Sub has shadow strike teleport and shadow step charges while Outlaw is going to have sprint, grapple and shadow step so DFA isn’t that necessary for mobility like it used to be.
However that can change because I sense a pruning spree happening with war within. Just a gut feeling.
With that said DFA is the only ability that has an immunity while other specs and classes (eg Demon Hunter) are loaded with immunities.
Technically Rogues are balanced assuming every other class has their immunities dialed back/removed. But that isn’t the case so that is why DFA will be talked about returning once more as a baseline ability for Rogues.
demon hunter has 1 presudo immunity with netherwalk while rogue has evasion and cloak of shadows. yall gotta learn how to kill demon hunters without crying about your own broken defensives
Why do you bother visiting these forums if you have nothing constructive to provide regarding Rogues?
Worse you lurk on rogue feedback threads on PTR and betas as if you are some type of authority. That is gross.
To answer your weird question Evasion and Cloak are not really immunities in the way DH have. The reason why DFA and a lot DH abilities have immunities is because animations.
Well except for the fact that Kspree no longer has an immunity while Whirlwind does. Which results in Kspree stop animating even if there is no CC within 100 yards because it will bug out a lot. That is why the devs put in immunties on stuff like DFA and DH abilities because they need to be able to run its course with the animations.
It still is an immunity in PVP because you can’t do anything and I am not talking about the ability to dodge from behind which is another can of worms we will discuss another time.
i dont think im being clear. blade dance is just a animation, it doesnt make your dodge anything anymore, it doesnt make your immune to everything anymore. its literally just a animation. (deflective dance is literally beans in pvp) the fact your a pvp main and think it still exist like that when it doesnt speaks volumns
the only extra “immunity” they have is meta jump but you dont save meta as a defensive because its your main cd for the execution.
So in other words you put up the white flag rather quickly on that one.
Since you are pally do you want to lump in bubble with abilities that have immunities due to bugging out animations? Bubble, CloS, Evasion, etc are not immunities because they need to animate rather because they are designed that way.
DFA has the mini immunity to it so it can animate.
I hope I made that clear but at this point you probably do not know much about Rogues and yet defend the Rogue discord like it is your home sweet home while trashing all Rogue forums in beta, PTRs and Rogue class forums.
bubble is a immunity yes, “immunity viva animation” were being giga phased out since early legion. its better that way because its cringe and lowkey degenerate. hence why i agreed that the blade dance “immunity” was removed
and people told you why it was removed and why it shouldnt come back. i agree, this really just reeks of “rules for thee but not for me”. you didnt even realize that the blade dance “immunity animation” was removed, o you probably did know it was gone but wnat to spread misinfo cause salty
no one mentioned the rogue discord once this entire thread. if it lives rent free in your head then you clearly have a guilty conscious for getting yourself removed from something that has very few rules to begin with
Its already a PvP talent. It shouldnt be baseline. Just bloating ability list for no reason. And PvE players legit dont want it.
Only immunity DH has like DfA is meta ability activation… for literally the same reason DfA has it. Youre untargetable in the air, its not an actual immunity.
All the other abilities keep you on the ground and thus give no immunity. Cause thats dumb.
Seems logical that the use of DfA would increase if they buff the damage, no ? But it doesn’t have anything to do with the immunity that i was talking about.
And as long as we have Secret Technique, DfA will never go back to what it was because they’re too similar and Secret Technique is just stronger.
I don’t see how having Secret Technique superior to DfA is putting all the eggs in the same basket. It would be the exact same thing if DfA was better.
And don’t get me wrong, I hate Secret Technique, the same way I hate DfA, both are useless finishers that don’t add anything to the spec except for an extra button (and in some minor cases, a short immunity).
Well it was pretty much the case before Legion with Shadow Dance being our only cd and the spec was amazing.
Our devs are trashes who probably never touched a Rogue before they had to ruin it for Legion.
Yes, the current iteration is better than what we had for Legion, BfA or SL and yes it’s better than s1 / s2 DF, but it’s still trash compared to Cataclysm / MoP.
I’ve been saying it for years, before Legion, Backstab did actual damage, now it’s just a joke.
Yup, that and the fact that having to spend half a second in the air without being able to do anything is an awful design.
I was never part of the Rogue discord community and frankly not interested to join since it has declined rapidly from what I am told.
Also Kspree bugs out far more than DFA did and yet Kspree is still available for PVE and DFA is still available for PVP. More people asked for Kspree to be removed than DFA over the years to be brutally honest.
Kspree without the immunity it used to have bugs out far more than DFA really.
So at this point you are just bandwagon on what others have said without contributing your own thoughts.
I’m pretty sure he was talking about Catlike Reflexes that made us (Subtlety) immune to fall damage.
And DfA was popular in pve because of the damage.
If we had a choice between an off gcd spell that could be used in a macro to empower Eviscerate and DfA, pretty much everyone would have ignored the latter.
then stop mentioning it when no one is talking about it. theres legit no reason
anecdotal evidence isnt evidence. ive seen more people asking for kspree to be buffed and fixed than have it out right removed. considering kspree is cemented and more outlae fantasy than dfa, i highly doubt people will be happy with ksprees removal for dfa. dfa considering its multiple issues and blizzards stance on “immunity” animations, its probably for the best that it stays dead in pve.
bandwagoning what? saying buzzwords to discredit well known reasoning isnt the flex you think it is. instead of saying “everyone but me is wrong” consider why dfa is pvp only and the core of your own complaints about “immunity animations”.
consider the fact you wrongfully think havoc “has these immunities” when it doesnt anymore. instead using it as a reason (wrong reason) to ask for cheesy broken unhealthy gameplay mechanics for rogue. despite popular belief the fix for how havoc “has these things” isnt fixed with giving another spec those same things.
luckily reality reflects that no spec has a immunity animation anymore, if they do then its attached to something that isnt spammable and to important to hold for defensive benefit (metamorph being a dps cd)
