quick test (value from tooltip) : no stack 29202 => 5 stacks 51104
51104/29202 ~= 1.75 so it’s multiplicative
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This is interesting. I normally dont like to make suggestions for abilities as many people provide that kind of feedback and blizzard is not receptive to it at all. However, it does feel bad that there is no large finisher to use at the end of a mongoose bite window. I wonder if something could be created for AoE where you funnel mongoose bite stacks into a big cleave at the end.
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Appreciate you! It’s nice to finally get an intelligent reply rather than the trolls who keep popping up.
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Thanks for the clarification. That means you could implement Carve as an ability with no cooldown and grants/is affected by Mongoose Fury without needing to make any big changes. The difference in AP would be made up by just making the transition between AoE and single target a lot smoother.
Heh heh, right back at you friend.
Since you can give a serious answer to things as well, what’s the general perception of Trick Shots on MM? Is it just yet another AoE mechanic (MM has like 4 in the spec tree, which is weird), or something that’s considered a spec-defining mechanic?
I agree, though I’ve stayed away from coming up with ways to address that issues because I’d default to “add a single-target finisher and an AoE finisher”, which I’m aware is a bit too FFXIV for some folks. On top of adding yet another button to push, which may or may not be a good thing.
I feel like Mongoose Bite itself is the big finisher. It’s rather unique that way because it’s up to the player to capitalize on the Mongoose Fury window. Personally I like the skill expression in getting to end the window with an extra Mongoose Bite or two. I do miss how Fury of the Eagle did have a MF component though!
MF scaling with other abilities could be neat too.
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I forgot about that!
Good looks, that would be really cool.
I have played MM Hunter for 3 seasons straight now and although I can’t really speak for the rest of the community, I think for me the defining feature of MM is bursty aoe damage. I think the spec lost a lot in PVE with the loss of Double Tap which when combined with Volley’s ability to give Trick Shots made for very powerful and bursty openers.
Before Hunter I played Ele Shaman and was always sad that my damage relied so heavily on tanks kiting in my earthquake (which is not always visible) and longer lasting pulls so I could ramp up. Hunter is/was a nice contrast to that.
Trick Shots as a mechanic is mostly good but can be slightly annoying as unless specifically specced for Chimera Shot, MM requires a minimum of 3 targets to AOE effectively when Volley is on CD and even then, Volley only provides about 3 casts (with good haste or other CDs) of AOE. Personally I don’t mind the alternating playstyle between Multishot (to activate Trick Shots) and either Rapid Fire or Aimed Shot. I just wish Multishot cost a little less focus and we had a few more tools for 2 target cleave. This could be solved if we had more point freedom in the MM tree so speccing into Chimera Shot wasn’t such a loss if specific niche fight mechanics aren’t present.
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For each of the specs AoE profiles - MM is most certainly the most bursty.
Beast cleave/trick shots/wildfire bomb are all meant to fill that AoE niche and MM is 100%a the most bursty. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses but for right now they each serve a defined purpose.
I just think the only thing that bugs me is that there are a lot of bloat talents or weird positionings that make hunters go through hoops to get key abilities. Same with the base tree too.
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At this point it sure seems that Hunter was made / finalized quite early in development when it comes to tree design and budget. You can look at the spreadsheets I linked earlier for further proof, but SV/BM (MM to a lesser degree, but mostly SV and BM) both have far too few nodes that cost too many points.
I haven’t looked at BM tree with a magnifying glass yet, but SV itself is especially painful as we have 8 nodes that are purely just “This ability does X% more damage” which is just…not fun.
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Thank you for clarifying on this. Agreed. I think for me, its not fun because I can see that there are talents in the middle of trees that the other specs have that are far more versatile and impactful.
When I said bloat, I meant it more in the sense that the talents we do have do nothing. I should have said something akin to too many talents that do nothing other then %damage.
Thank you for helping me to clarify this and I agree with your sentiment.
Something i wanted to round out upon btw. With hunter’s base tree being so strict in terms of tiers and the abilities being so railroaded to certain spots, I could imagine leveling at low level is really tough right? I feel like you’d get so few abilities and defensives as hunter already and then survival is almost nothing.
My biggest gripe about the MM tree is lone wolf and hunter’s knowledge. You have to use a pet 100% of the time in pvp. Hunter’s knowledge is a very important throughput passive, giving crit on the two most important rotational abilities. You have to waste a point in LW to take it, literally creating a dead talent slot. You can skip the whole node, but I cannot think of any other spec that has to skip that important of a high-tree basic talent to simply not waste a talent point. IMO, lone wolf in general has been an awkward situation for the entirety of its existence since so much utility comes from the pet. I think the spec would be better off in the long run if they just did away with it and refactored the rest of its output around always using a pet. In the absence of that, LW should be a lone node that does not gate anything such that you’re not forced to take it in situations where you know that you’re going to have to use a pet.
I really like how they changed bullseye to a 1 point talent, which more reliably lets you use cts/unnerring with windrunner’s, but that side of the talent tree still feels like a mess. Namely, the connections (or lack thereof) between focused aim and bullseye. I really don’t want to have to take both serpentstalker’s and deadeye to traverse that side of the tree. Tactical reload and steady focus are pretty useless for pvp, so you end up going focused aim, deadeye, serpent → bullseye. They could add a connection from bursting shot to serpentstalkers and/or more connections to/from lnl so that you don’t have to pick up talents that you’re realistically not building around just to get to the right capstone.
Arms, ret, havoc, etc. have seemingly perfect trees where it does not feel like you’re ever really sacrificing anything to make a cohesive pvp build. Marks still feels really awkward. IMO, they could swap HK with steady focus or tactical reload to make it more accessible and move those undesirable (for pvp) talents more suited for pve in the LW area where pve players are going to be using points.
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I think this is good feedback. It’s important to note that often giving good feedback about how you tackle your gameplay as a player and having the mindset of a player for that is important.
Being penalized for talents is rough, though for lone wolf it has such a huge flair for the spec I’m unsure how it should be tackled in the future. Otherwise, good looks.
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My opinion on it is basically that they need to either do away with it entirely or bake the pet utility from RoS/pet specials (master’s call, tenacity wall, lust)/mortal wounds into other abilities that come from the hunter. Make it a petless spec if it’s supposed to be a petless spec, and fully balance it around that, or do away with it. It has always been awkward imo.
I understand the frustration for this. I wonder if there is a way to do away with it or keep it in another form. Either way, i do think the important interaction is that being penalized for a talent in any capacity is rough.
For example, when warlock takes GoSac, it’s class tree talents change to provide some other benefit given that it isn’t using a pet. The various +pet damage talents add damage to GoSac, soul link grants + stam in lieu of not having a pet to share damage with, etc.
Lone wolf could make arcane or aimed shot passively provide a MS and give you replica options of pet abilities that you would otherwise have if using a pet. RoS could grant some other kind of defensive function in lieu of no pet, etc.
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I want to direct this feedback in a healthy way so that actionable feedback is made. So, you’re feeling that you feel Lone Wolf Should do more to mold the pets abilities to substitute functionality lost by Lone Wolf. Is this a correct assessment?
More or less, yeah. If the optimal way to play it is sans pet, it shouldn’t have to sacrifice the utility that the other two hunter specs get baked into their full damage builds with active pets. Alternatively, just delete the ability and refactor the rest of marks around always using a pet like the other hunter specs.
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Okay, no worries. I just want to help us all here. It’s hard to make direct suggestions sometimes because its hard for developers to do a direct JUST KILL THIS ABILITY HERE or whatnot. It’s much better to give feedback as to why an ability feels bad, so the developer is given more open creative space to change it or move it as needed.
Additionally, changes that need to be made do cost time and money. It’s important we give consideration for that and clear feedback accordingly.
I’m trying to understand what you mean by bursty. Granted, what counts as “burst” to me would be an iteration of what Double Tap used to do: Push a button, do way more damage than usual for a short amount of time. I’m not seeing that in what the spec has for AoE. For that matter, I still think the spec is overloaded with AoE. I mean, you have:
- Multi-Shot
- Chimaera Shot
- Volley
- Trick Shots
- Windrunner’s Barrage (does anyone actually spec into this?)
- Barrage (if you specced into it in the class tree)
My simple-is-best mentality tells me you might want to pare that down to at most 3 AoE mechanics. Volley feels like it’s there because it used to be a prominent talent in past hunter iterations. The same goes for Chimaera Shot.
Then we have Trick Shots, which has really good pros such as the fact that it can be tweaked a lot in the spec tree (more targets, less targets, interaction with Kill Shot). The cons are more personal because the more I look at it, the less the concept behind it makes sense to me. I can’t help but think the mechanic is something that would be at home in the kit of a tech-oriented class (a frontal cone sound wave attack that marks targets for a follow up missile barrage attack that requires marked targets) instead of a marksman.
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