Dark Times Ahead for Rogues

Classes Rogue
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We must circle the wagons in these trying times. But before I begin lets preface this as to how we arrived to this point.

DF Beta

A lot of the issues that were brought in DF beta (eg bugs, plethora of energy talents, etc) were not really addressed. As a result this required Rogues to have a mid expansion rework which isn’t that common. Last time that happened was In MoP and Legion and Rogues were nerfed heading into MoP. Heading into TWW it feels like Rogues have ate a net nerf like MoP but more on that later.

Feedback does matter but…

Feedback is integral to development of classes but Rogues are in their current sunken state because the focus is so much on discord feedback versus actually feedback outside of that bubble. As a result when feedback even from discord is all but ignored you have a situation with no accountability and no transparency of where Rogue class design is going. Unfortunate but those of us that stated why it is important that BlizZard communicates on their official channels are proven right once again sadly.

Why the silence? My hypothesis

Current Nu BlizZard is data driven but data is hard to generate from theoretical models. Meaning until a large number of players provide that data through playing then BlizZard will not budge with many changes that much. Rogues can not provide that much data because they are one of the least played classes. As a result of being the least played classes Rogues are currently left in the dust with this new design paradigm and directive.

Furthermore, being in the TWW beta I have seen so many bugs and the condensed time frame with such a quick release indicates to me that disaster is coming soon. At least with MoP we had time to test out things because the time frame for release was more realistic.

Facing reality

The reality is that Rogues as a result heading into prepatch, and possibly the expansion, are staring out net overall with nerfs to the class and specs. There are some positive changes (eg new bone spike and SND Cut to the Chase) but too many negative changes that really throw a monkey wrench into things.

Rogues from DF prepatch to the TWW prepatch are in a worsened state. I think that sums it up and I am not using hyperbole when I state this because objectively and subjectively I believe this to be true based on my experience and talking with others.

Moving forward’

BlizZard is moving to a new design with mini expansions starting with TWW so there is no guarantee there will be a mid expansion rework.

But as others have figured out or have been saying for a while now the core problem is the DF talent trees are in need of rework. By throwing Hero talents on top of them that doesn’t solve the core issue and makes it seem like that the DF talents are not evergreen if they are just an afterthought.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

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Other than “bugs” and a nebulous “feels like a net nerf” you haven’t really explained what the big problem is with rogues heading into TWW or why they would be falling so far behind other classes (which, if you look at their forums, ALSO have problems according to them).

Blizzard explicitly said coming into DF that the new talent trees were going to be an iterative process, and as a result, many classes got significant re-tooling to their trees mid-expansion. I don’t think this means that much, and certainly not compared to other classes.

Aren’t rogues usually down with monks amongst the least played classes? I agree that less players can equal less feedback, but why would this be more relevant in TWW than it has been in other expansions?

This applies to every class though. Heck, Enhance Shamans literally can’t even test out one of their hero specs right now because they can’t access the totem it’s based on. Windwalker is the poster child for “bugs that stick around for multiple expansions.” I have little doubt that changes to trees, and especially hero trees will have some ironing out to do in terms of bugs once it is live and there is orders of magnitude more feedback/data coming in, but unless you have some indication that rogues have more/worse bugs than other classes do on beta right now, this just isn’t a relevant point.

Which specific nerfs (that can’t be addressed with tuning) are going to lead to “dark times ahead?”

  1. I am indeed accusing you of hyperbole
  2. you haven’t provided anything objective. I can’t argue with your feelings though.
  3. if you ask the internal communities in any class, there is basically always some amount of doomsaying.
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I disagree because the mid expansion rework changed mechanically how specs played which the last time that happened was legion (eg Sub)

The concept of iterative process always exists in a MMORPG but DF had a flawed process because of a flawed beta which made the DF mid expansion rework a half hearted effort.

Furthermore as we have seen with the TWW “iterative process” it has been half hearted and nothing followed through or communicated.

I think I will leave it at that because the rest of your points are not even logical to even address.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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The iterative process they spoke of only functions when they actually make the efforts in iterating on those things. Yes, this issue isn’t rogue specific, but at this point, it’s becoming more pronounced for the class compared to other classes, as even Shamans just got a mid-beta rework along with Paladin and Hunter. Shamans are one of the least cared for classes in the game, hands down, and they got both communication and at least an attempt at iterations, unlike the rogue side.

The things other classes are complaining about, if you look into it, are things such as DK’s being forced into cleave using their D&D. While valid issues, it’s hard to compare the need of minor reworks to currently having an entire hero tree being unusable as of the current state of it for Rogue. And, even if this is a massive issue across multiple classes, they have been making this game for almost 20 years. They have metrics. You think they could actually get the numbers right after 20 years of developing this.

The community is shrinking as people leave the game and swap classes in response to the lack of attention and communication. The internal metrics don’t care if the playerbase for the class shrinks as long as their impressions and money metrics are met. The developers can use this as an excuse to put infinitely less resources into fixing issues as the noise created from the small community isn’t enough for them to care, at least until we start working on doing something that they can’t ignore. They’ve already done this as the bugs with stealth and abilities are now going on 3 seasons of being massive, worsening problems that they refuse to put resources towards addressing.

You should probably look at the litany of existing bugs with the class from the last 2 patches, and ones from Shadowlands that are still not being dealt with. Stealth breaking in both PVE/PVP due to a laundry list of interactions which kills DPS rotations and escape from bad situations nigh impossible, the fact that recuperator is broken and doesn’t give the heal past the initial application (despite having been “fixed” on 3 separate occasions), crackshot forcing cooldowns in a litany of cases that it shouldn’t, multiple effects ignoring Cloak of Shadows cleanses, a litany of Shadow Duel bugs… Once again, this isn’t a Rogue specific issue, but when taken into the totality of the circumstances, it’s becoming a larger overall problem of effort being put into the class.

Someone more versed in the other 2 specs can give a better note on this specifically, but overall the class just feels neutered with the changes forcing extremely specific builds and adding a number of buttons to the rotation just to make things even more complex for no discernable reason. (IE: Distract as a damage cooldown is the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen in the class, and forcing you to use killing spree, which is almost universally considered to just be a terrible button as it gets you killed way more than not. Losing 2 seconds of control is just massive BS.)

There is a bit of hyperbole, as anyone set to create some noise is going to do, but it’s starting to become warranted imo, with the lack of communication coming from Blizzard.
Hopefully adding to this a bit more concisely helps explain some of this, but most of us rogues are just exhausted with being kicked around by the Dev team. They’ve put little-to-no effort in making the class fun, and in fact have on record stated that they are designing the class with “rituals” in place just because they “feel like” every rogue needs to do them. It’s fundamentally bad design to enforce bad mechanics just because they “think” it’s required, when most of the actual players hate that design.

It’s at the point that we just need to either mass unsub or suck it up. The only thing the company cares about is their metrics, and until we actually make the needle move, they have less than zero reason to care.

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i unsubbed and did not preorder
first expansion in wow that i did not preorder, since the preorder era

when i saw feint being turned into a dps ability , instead of things like poisoned knife or shuriken toss, or even the potential return of deadly throw, it was all i needed to know about the direction rogues are going.

straight into the dumpster, flamethrower at the ready.

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I’m close to requesting a refund myself. The only reason I’ve not done so is that it was a Christmas gift, or else I’d have refunded the preorder ages ago.

At this point, I’m taking a moderate break before pre-patch and, if the community can get a coordinated effort going, I’ll gladly unsub when they do. It seems to be the only way to get them to listen, short of doing what Warlocks did ages ago and posting some ad on Reddit :dracthyr_tea:

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I refuse to pre order based on the principal I feel that overall the entire expansion is being rushed with TWW and not necessarily the focus is on Rogue lack of attention.

Broader picture is that TWW is under a time constraint like DF. But with DF there was some iteration while with TWW is has been basically non existent.

Rogue issues is beyond what most classes deal with in terms of game play because Rogue core game play like stealth is something Rogues are balanced around despite there being numerous bugs.

Stance dance issues has always been a problem with Rogues and other classes but it became more prominent with DF as Rogues are balanced around increasing stealth mechanics.

The new healing talent is a leech that relies on stealth (shadowheart). But if stealth is buggy or relies on mechanics that are not smooth that complicates things…a lot.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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that talent would have been worthless even if we spent 100% of combat during stealth/shadow dance

but it goes beyond that

trickster sounds great but it just isn’t what it wants to be
deathstalker needs to cook a few months more
fatebound is literally something out of a fever dream. i can’t even.

the specs themselves, without hero talents, have glaring issues.
sub requires you to jump through 1000 hoops for no other reason than to end up middle of the pack dps, at best
it’s fine that assa is slow, we need slow specs too. it is not fine that DM is the only dps CD that is dispellable, and it is not fine that assa has M+ aspirations without actually being designed to perform in M+
outlaw is an abomination to play. it’s either so fast you can barely keep up, or so slow that you feel like time has stopped.

feedback is also a futile exercise. say whatever you want to the contrary, but after 2 expansions of more of asking for stuff like SnD to just be humanely put down, and still having to carry that comatose skill on our bars, it’s pretty clear to me that we’re being ignored.

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Sub is the easiest to fix because it was the healthiest coming out of the DF mid expansion rework.

Some of the timing of CDs can be cleaned up a bit. Not saying all CDs should be all synch because of PVP implications and PVE due to CD/modifier stacking.

Assassination needs more help to become a fully capable M+ spec to cleave IMO. Outlaw is in the same boat because it still has a AoE/Cleave penalty that other specs don’t have to deal with and Outlaw is the hurt the most with the loss of Acro.

Rogue hero talents needs more time to cook and make sense with the Rogue hero trees. Kspree should not be a required talent as that is no longer the cornerstone of the spec as there is no red buff insight. The focus of Outlaw is AR/three RTB buffs which is what Trickster should have focused on.

Deathstalker has a lot of potential to make it work without stealth mechanics and more on self buffs/debuffs and bleeds out of stealth.

Etc, etc, etc.

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This is the thing I’m having the most issue with personally.

Every other class has one hero class, at minimum, that is engaging and seems like it would be fun. Sure, maybe it’s not the spec that you want to play, but there is one.

Rogue is missing this entirely.

Trickster convolutes the rotation by adding additional buttons, forcing the use of KS, making Distract a damage CD, and overall suffering from a lack of consistent direction that just feels like they did the bare minimum required to get one of these hero trees playable.

Deathstalker seems to have a lot of potential but just falls flat in the end, making it feel only playable in the regard that the only choice Sin players have is this or Fatebound.

And Fatebound… Well, whoever has an obsession with forcing rogues to deal with 500 RNG elements in the class needs to get therapy for their sadistic tendencies as I’m pretty sure we asked for less RNG in the design, not to make a whole damn tree centered around getting shafted by things out of your control.

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Honestly it is very easy to make Kspree fit into Outlaw rotation. Make it increase the chance of Shark Buff or Grand Melee when it is off CD. Or make Ghostly Strike part of amplifying Kspree to full max CP when used together. And shorten the Kspree strikes and return it to the faster older animation where they were Eviscerates animation instead of using the ambush animation.

Sub could have a talent to synchronize CDs instead of Shadow Dust for a brief period of time.

Assassination should be able to cleave better without requiring stealth.

Etc, etc, etc.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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i think one of the problems outlaw has, and this is evidenced with kspree, is that it does not have a proper dps cd. it’s fine to have some cd reduction on abilities, but if you have it on all of them, then they all need to be toned down.
kspree used to be something to fear. now it’s just meh. it used to be an awesome button to press, closest thing we had to omnislash in dota. now it just tickles.

at this point, just remove the stealth requirement on indiscriminate carnage. it would still be preferable and optimal to apply your garrotes from stealth because of shrouded suffocation and imp garrote, but it won’t cripple the spec as much as it does now.
IC will still be situational, useless in ST or spread cleave, required in aoe and melee cleave

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Removing the stealth requirement from IC and also making death mark undispellable would make Assassination a lot better. Even adding a true defensive talent that reduced damage while Crimson Vial is active.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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i kept saying this, even adding a talent that replaces crimson vial with x seconds of healing (or an absorb shield) on snd, based on x cp used, would free up a button and make snd less of a stink to press.
or having a choice node with cheat death, where crimson vial auto triggers when you drop below 35% health, once every 30 seconds or whatever. i don’t like this option cause it’s too similar to well honed instincts for druid, but it would still be better.

at any rate, vanish should be primarily a defensive cd. if used offensively, it should be a high risk, high reward ability. it just isn’t right now.

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Because nothing is in the pipeline. They are getting ready for launch.

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Yes even with a launch near they can still choose to communicate.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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Too bad there’s not a choice node for Communicate. Of course, they would never choose it because the competing choice, Silence of the Lambs, has much more synergy with their fantasy.

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I think that they will communicate at some point but we might be at the point of no mechanical changes as tuning has commenced.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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They changed all /most of the major “dispels” to only dispel one thing at a time in pvp in TWW

  • dh immolation aura
  • mistweaver restoral / revival
  • paladin judgement dispel
  • Not evokers or dwarves (that I am tracking, might have missed it). It Was around 3 weeks ago. Assassination is currently whooping on everything on the high ladder doing Fan of Knives spam to triple people’s damage at times so it is unlikely they are going to do anything about DM.

On the question of IC (Im asking to understand - not making fun or prodding)

  • why would it be ok or balanced for IC to work out of stealth with the strength things like that apply?
  • it cannot be potent if it is frequent or too accessible
  • rogues must rogue and so we do not and will not operate like other classes.
  • the stealth bugs aren’t bugs and are mechanically intended ex divine toll and malific rapture WILL hit whatever it can find as per those class abilities. (Time to lay that argument to rest as it is intended just as those classes will still gripe about rogue no matter what .
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Oh the consequences of certain groups and their burst donkey mentality. They are too busy playing game 2 and we keep riding this train.

We have been nudged away from cds and returning to inspiration from better days and even the RH cultists agree that the lows had to be addressed. The very things I constantly got mocked and told to shut up for have come to happen and now we are maturely moving a nudge into the older days instead of “im only useful for 8sec heh”.

Even if they added a lower cd via obedience style talent to affect flag / blades and kept it on the finisher side with deep investment so you cannot double dip (not likely) , they would still complain because the tree isn’t filled with gimmicks. All dance or nothing nonsense had to go and it is exhausting especially as the rest of the world is increasingly fast.

Dust aka preparation is necessary being that we are a very heavy cd reliant class and aggressive vanishing has always existed on any of us rogues anyway. The whole hivemind regime has got to stop hijacking the class.

Its all a consequence of tampering with what we had and what they continually create problems for.

  • impactful cds cannot be too frequent
  • the reliance on cds has increasingly been a constraint since legion and we are slowly breaking away (good)
  • dumb aoe silly gimmicks need to stop and existing only in dance is also dumb. Get excited for doing jack when some chick fil a owl or a shadow priest hobo does more and for like 45sec straight kicking something in the butt while we are doing jack crap out of dance whining about cds.

The very consequences of dance donkey nonsense and why that has to stop. TWW is moving in a good direction regardless of the hero talents selection and specs.

We cannot aoe wahhh, is not a good angle and we should be smoking the dog snot outta priority targets. Leave the rest to the pajama classes anyway. Deathstalker cranks, trickster cranks, fatebound def cranks. Sorry its not some dumb gimmick or bfa laser to hijack the entire gosh dang kit and everything is instead able to breathe once again and we are slowly moving away from the legion curse.

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