Danuser+Ion Sriracha Take on retcons and lore

Yup, that was an interesting idea. I saw it for the first time mentioned in

Also it’s possible to find refence to it from alpha datamining leftovers iirc, like

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2543860-Shadowlands-New-Dungeons-and-Encounter-Journal-Build-9-0-1-33978

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2543869-Shadowlands-New-Scenarios-Build-9-0-1-33978

Interesting reference too IMO. Which resulted in nothing (no NW in Bastion afaia).

Nah, many time devs said “designers do not need to be programmers”. Which has some merit in a way, but lack of understanding of the limitations of the toolkit is one of possible side effects, which sometimes is not too troublesome, but sometimes can ruin stuff.

Now you can speculate, so, you’ll keep engaged and subbed regardless of the pay off ever happening. Logical, right?


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I had gathered from it that the Uldir facility was an attempt by the Titan Keepers to understand the nature of Old Gods and how they might best be destroyed for good by creating a scaled down “mock up” old god. The Keepers, like the Titans they are made to represent, are beings of Order. All beings of Order seem to be noticeably lacking in imagination—that is ironically arguably a quality of the Void—and so as per their compulsion for logic, they operated based on scientific observation principles which was a totally disastrous thing to do. They tried to apply the principles of Order to the Void, which is inherently beyond any logical understanding or Ordering.

They were not just using Uldir to explain Old Gods though. They were also studying the blood plague as well. I got the feeling they were possibly trying to understand all organic life as a way to eventually kill it.

Also, there’s a lot of stuff from the Horde side of BFA that is still relevant in Shadowlands. For example, the consumption of Loa anima apparently changes a mortals soul. This only seems like it’s glossed over or not looked back on when Vol’jin consumes Rezan’s soul.

If you eat a God’s soul, it changes your soul forever . I think that should have way more implications in Shadowlands, and the way anima is consumed. What if in the end it’s like a Matrix scenario where the Eternal Ones only became as powerful as they did by wiping out entire planets and consuming that anima.

The Old Gods and their thousand truths may have known this and why they warn us by saying “all things have souls, all souls can be devoured.”

Mueh’zala was stealing Loa souls from Ardenweald so that Mawsworn could eat their souls.

The Jailer’s endgame for the soul of our world might just be to consume it to become all powerful. It seems like more and more, Uldir was a facility that was in some ways tied to activity going on in the Shadowlands, same with Throne of Thunder.

Star Trek did perfectly fine without a canon for the better part of 3 series. Twilight Zone, Outer Limits most dramatic shows operate just fine without a canon at all. On the other hand the chaotic mess of Star Wars shows what happens when you have too much canon.

Stories and legends are frequently contradictory and sometimes wrong. I’m sure that there are people who believe that Paul Bunyan was a product of American folk lore as opposed to just being the creation of a timber company advertising campaign.

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Quite the contrary - Star Wars shows what happens when you do not adhere to canon or even try to explain what is allegedly a contradition. A lack of a baseline canon, and more strict canon, also lead to fan-misconceptions - such as the belief that balance in the force means equal parts dark side and equal parts light side.

Now, I am not a trekkie myself, at all. So I can’t really speak for that, don’t know what the Twillight Zone or Outer Limits are… sounds like they are just shows in the same Star Trek universe, so it is just a different story set apart from the main story, but they still follow the baseline canonical rules. Typical species behaviours, how star ships function, etc.

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Nah this is a videogame and a roleplaying game whose root of enjoyment for both Roleplayers, Lore Nerds, and even just basic casuals “I would like to understand the story” requires stable canon

Creating a situation where the player knows as much as the characters we play is absolutely crap

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They were anthology shows which meant that every episode was pretty much a self-contained mini-universe of it’s own.

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I find it more immersive that way but that comes from a multi-decade history of roleplaying games. I certainly did not expect to know as much about the campaign worlds I adventured in as the game master or one of their sourcebooks.

That’s great for you but this isn’t a table top rpg with your friends.

This is a videogame whose community has largely devolved into a mass of solo casuals, partly due to the death of server culture, and as I stated has huge swarths of people whose enjoyment of the game requires stable canon.

If in a videogame you have the players knowing as much as their in-game characters where to make sense of the lore and explain how it could make sense required multiple YouTube videos explaining it to you, thats a problem.

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At least as of TNG there was something of a timeline and canon. There were rules to an extent of what you could and could not do and how things worked. Before that things were a played a bit more fast and loose, true.

For the most part this game has been solo casuals, raid guilds, and PVP esporters who could not care less about the overall story. Of the roleplayers when it was at its height most of them were doing thier own things which pretty much ignore most if not all of whatever the current metaplot was. What you have left, the roleplayers who tied themselve in varying degrees to the metaplot was and remains the smallest part of the audience.

Most of the frustration with Shadowlands has been the glacial pace of the expansion over all.

Nah this is a horrible misreading of the situation. Both prior and after the lawsuit came into the equation the majority of the social media space was taken up by people criticizing the story.

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Yup, if the audience is fine with the “if a story is good, it’s on to bend the canon”, then it can work.

But it’s a dance for more than 1 person. It’s equaly valid outcome when the story created is good, but the customers are leaving, if their requirements are not met. Gotta have explicit contract about such things.


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The Throne of Thunder was created solely by Lei Shen not by Ra-Den who only created Mogu’shan Palace(which extends all the way to Kun-Lai Summit and the Vault of Y’Shaarj in Pandaria).

Lei Shen using Spirit Binding is unprecedented as the Mogu working for Ra-Den outright state that Death Magic is abhorred by Titans and Titan Keepers.

Odyn and Helya are the only Titan Keepers that have interested in Death Magic and the Shadowlands so any ties that Uldir has to studying the Shadowlands would have to come from Odyn not the other Titan Keepers.

Yes, this all threads together somehow. With Zul the Prophet’s connection to Lei-Shen because that’s who taught him necromancy. Lei Shen learned Necromancy from the Zandalari right?

It does seem like Zul the Prophet was intimately connected to the Shadowlands and Mueh’zala.

Odyn being solely responsible for Uldir is interesting considering his history with the Shadowlands, Mueh’zala and the Jailer. Then I guess Deathwing didn’t know it was just Odyn because he says it was the Titans experiment and Aman’thul knew about it and turned a blind eye.

Aman’Thul was no where near Azeroth when Deathwing ascended to Dragon Aspect. Any transmissions concerning Odyn would be about him quitting his job as Prime Designate.

Ra-Den didn’t even know of the Chamber of Heart created by Archaedas despite being a higher ranked Titan Keeper on the grounds that neither Archaedas nor Azeroth gave him clearance to know.

How would the Titan Keepers know that Odyn who started using Death Magic following the Aspects’ ascension would be experimenting on Old Gods and Loa out of distrust for the Aspects(this is considering the possibility that he created Uldir since he is the most likely to be doing so)? He ditched the group!

None of the Dragon Aspects were even told that Azeroth was a World Soul nor the existence of Void Lords either so how would Deathwing know what the true purpose of Azeroth was? He probably doesn’t even know that the Titans died at the hands of Sargeras unlike Lei Shen!

Well no.

It would’ve been better if that had been the case, for Zul to be the Horde’s equivalent of Gorak Tul, and Mueh’zala to have been the one behind G’huun growing/escaping, and for Zul helping G’huun to have been part of Mueh’zala helping Zovaal.

But it isn’t.

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if Zul isn’t connected to Mush’zala what did he do for all those years hanging out with the Sandfury after he was banished from Zandalar?

It would be a better story.

Sadly that’s the most disappointing thing about lore speculation. What is speculated is far more interesting than what is actually written. I would love for you to be right about Zul not being dead. his end in BfA was so disappointing.

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It may surprise you but the Nathrezim have been welcomed by the Void Lords in open arms which explains why the Dark Star had a Domination Death Magic taint that Thrall distinctly recognized when he encountered the Mawsworn(unlike the Darkness that Sylvanas wielded which was completely unrecognizable).

The Nathrezim gave Domination Death Magic to the Void Lords at Zovaal’s orders. The Void Lords saw Zovaal’s scheme but they accepted the power of Domination anyways and mixed it with their Void Magics.

With the Void being tainted with Death it is no wonder G’huun’s followers used Death as the original Old Gods picked it up from the Nathrezim!

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Evidently nothing that would make sense.

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

WoW is 20% coherent plot and 80% very obvious missed opportunities.

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