Daelin Proudmoore was right about the horde

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

I have been pretty explicit about free will and culpability being paramount in deciding how someone is responsible for their own actions.

Arthas had free will from birth up to when he touched that sword. You want to blame anything on Arthas on it has to be between that window because after that window he has a total loss of free will.

If you want to play gotcha with me at least post the quote that is making you confused rather than lie about what I have said.

I don’t know, you seem to like assertions. You make some blanket statement that ignores counter arguments, When people respond you bring up other blankets statements. After the subject drifts away you declare victory and/or assert the same statement as if it is unrequited. If someone falls for that, you repeat the cycle.

I mean, the point was “They are responsible for their own actions.”. Yet you claim that Arthas has no responsibility for decisions he made_ before _picking up Frostmourne. What you do respond here with. The issue of how much free will you have after the choices were made. Already you change the subject.

[Julia-icecrown (Julia)]

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Even without the demon blood they went on a draenei killing spree.

In an alternate universe.

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Yes the Orcs are to blame.

I love the double standards where a race that is deceived by the legion impersonating there ancestors and where they had no forwarning are 100% to blame for the legion’s actions.

At which point Mueh’Zala rips off Kil’jaden by posing as “Da Spirits” and sends the Horde straight into the same mess they did before.

The excuse they had no warning kinda falls flat when the exact same plot works a second time.

But an arrogant princeling who’s ego and hubris lead him to dive willingly into their grasp despite being warned, is an innocent victim of the legion who is not responsible for the choices he made.

I am legitimately confused here. Do you mean Arthas or Kael’Thas? Or someone else. Nether Arthas nor Kael’Thas were innocent victims in my honest opinion.

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Which you say is the draenei… not even the eredar. but the draenei.

No, the legion.

The Draenei just screwed over the races of Draenor by not providing any warning of what might be chasing them. it’s not the biggest crime, but it still put their neighbors at risk without knowledge. It’s one of the stones in the rockslide of that situation.

The Draenei are responsible for not saying something, but I doubt it would have shakened the orcs faith in their Ancestors if they had. Kil’jaden played his cards very good.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

@Julia-icecrown

At which point Mueh’Zala rips off Kil’jaden by posing as “Da Spirits” and sends the Horde straight into the same mess they did before.

With the way the writers act, most likely.

@Julia-icecrown

Do you mean Arthas or Kael’Thas?

It does work for both, but I was using it here for Arthas as he’s the one who has people say that he’s 100% not responsible for anything after he touched the evil sword.

@Julia-icecrown

The Draenei are responsible for not saying something, but I doubt it would have shakened the orcs faith in their Ancestors if they had. Kil’jaden played his cards very good.

True, who knows how it would have played out if they did. It’s one of those all the choices suck situation there.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Elathaah-proudmoore

Yet you claim that Arthas has no responsibility for decisions he made_ before _picking up Frostmourne.

I have never stated this.
Please provide evidence where I claimed this.

@Elathaah-proudmoore

Already you change the subject.

I have been very consistent with my statements, you are making baseless accusations that are simply not true and I find it interesting every time I ask you to prove what you are saying you make yet another dodge.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

Can you be more specific? In WC3 Grommash drank the blood again knowing full well what will happen and the old Horde were never really another mindless scourge following a lich’s orders. They still had free will.
Their violent side and inhibitors were just turned really low.

Thats why Saurfang and the Orcs were running door to door killing people like a drug addict chasing their next fix until they ran out of things to kill and would finally calm down.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

I just feel that’s more a writer problem in my view. There was the Horde that we were sold at launch, but it just feels like the writers have no idea how to write that Horde, some have been a bit overly fond of wc2, which while I liked, wasn’t really the best the story has been.

Its definitely a writer’s problem but this is the reality we find ourselves in. And the only way to make improvements is to recognize the issue so that it can be fixed and addressed rather than ignore it and keep trucking on with the same problems.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

But that fix needs to address the problems that the horde players face as well as the Alliance, which is what makes that hard. We we harmed just as much as Alliance players by the turn of the story in BFA, just in a different fashion. The fix can’t revolve around one faction, it has to find a way to thread the needle between the two different problems.

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

@Elathaah-proudmoore

Already you change the subject.

I have been very consistent with my statements, you are making baseless accusations that are simply not true and I find it interesting every time I ask you to prove what you are saying you make yet another dodge.

Just now, I make a comment about responsibility for actions each made before they lost free will. You responded with a comment about after free will was lost. Its all right there.

And I’m not going to hunt down quotes you will only misdirect from. But know know, I’ll give you an out. If you think the Horde bears responsibility for choices resulting from being deceived by the Legion, then does Arthas bear responsibility for what he did after being warned of the risks of taking up Frostmourne? Apples to apples, no changing the subject, on the record.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Elathaah-proudmoore

Just now, I make a comment about responsibility for actions each made before they lost free will. You responded with a comment about after free will was lost. Its all right there.

… You are contradicting yourself.
you said:

@Elathaah-proudmoore

Yet you claim that Arthas has no responsibility for decisions he made**_ before _**picking up Frostmourne.

I said the following

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Arthas had free will from birth up to when he touched that sword. You want to blame anything on Arthas on it has to be between that window because after that window he has a total loss of free will.

It is literally the exact opposite of you claim I said.

You can blame Arthas from the time he was a newborn until the moment he touched that sword. Everything between that time is fully the responsibility of Arthas 100%.
Everything that comes after frostmourne is an extreme grey area because for all intents and purposes Arthas ceased to be Arthas.
Do you understand now?

@Elathaah-proudmoore

And I’m not going to hunt down quotes you will only misdirect from.

Its tough isn’t it? Actually being asked to prove the lies you claim?

@Elathaah-proudmoore

then does Arthas bear responsibility for what he did after being warned of the risks of taking up Frostmourne?

The reason the Orcs bear responsibility is because they still have free will.
The orcs can still think and act independently. They are not mind controlled in anyway besides becoming unstoppable rage fueled killing machines when they get in their battle frenzy.

The Orcs were fully conscious. Arthas was gone. His brain went bye bye.
Do you understand? its not about the original sin of drinking or picking up the sword.
Its about being fully conscious and responsible for the actions you take.

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

The reason the Orcs bear responsibility is because they still have free will.
The orcs can still think and act independently. They are not mind controlled in anyway besides becoming unstoppable rage fueled killing machines when they get in their battle frenzy.

The Orcs were fully conscious. Arthas was gone. His brain went bye bye.
Do you understand? its not about the original sin of drinking or picking up the sword.
Its about being fully conscious and responsible for the actions you take.

Dude more redirecting. I explicitly asked about Arthas being responsible for his actions before picking up the sword. When he was just as “fully conscious” as the Orcs.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

I literally said he was responsible for those actions.

Do you not read?

@Smallioz-kromcrush

You can blame Arthas from the time he was a newborn until the moment he touched that sword. Everything between that time is fully the responsibility of Arthas 100%.

Here. Do you see it???

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Arthas was gone. His brain went bye bye.
Do you understand?

And this is why I hate the Arthas (and somewhat Sylvanas) morality questions, because we get into the gray area of “how much are they actually in control and therefore how culpable are they?”

There’s a part in … Wrath? I believe? That suggests some part of Arthas was holding back the Scourge somewhat. That’s some sort of resistance.

There’s a part where Arthas cuts out his own heart. Or the struggle between the three personalities inside his mind. There’s some sort of inner monologue. It seems like Arthas is killing off Ner’zhul and also his good side.

Yet also he’s clearly unhinged after picking up Frostmourne. Much of it is attributed to the whispers from the sword - which he willingly picked up despite an ominously vague quote and warnings from a treasure hunting Dwarf - but even then it’s not quite as unhinged as when he puts on the Helm of Domination.

Then we have Bolvar, sans Frostmourne, wears the Helm of Domination and fights back against the Jailer’s will. Anduin just broke free of Domination magic in the Shadowlands apparently by the power of his two dads.

Does this mean Arthas should’ve tried really really hard to resist? Was he already resisting? Did he choose to embrace the evil? Was it his fathers fault for not appearing as a ghost to save him and instead only showing up when he died?

Sylvanas has a split soul, completely controlled and see herself doing countless atrocities, then when the frozen throne cracks, she is freed. Except in undeath, folks get their souls imperfectly reattached (and she only has part of her soul). They supposedly struggle to feel positive emotions.

Then she commits suicide and she’s tortured in hell because a cosmic deity circumvented the normal death route, putting literal eternal torture on her plate.

I don’t mean this negatively toward your comment Smallioz, it’s actually because you mentioned specifically above that after grabbing the sword, Arthas enters a bit more of a gray area (I’m on my phone or I would’ve switched the quote).

I agree wholeheartedly, but I (personally) run into the issue of how to delineate the shades of gray within this entire mess. The storylines don’t exactly make it easy since so much of it seems to fluctuate, but it often seems like, “Well, they were influenced and/or controlled but … maybe they could’ve broken free… maybe it wasn’t total … but maybe it was …” and this also (to a lesser degree) applies to the Orcs as well.

I don’t know. Send everyone to Revendreth and let the Accuser sort it out. Better yet let Theotar sort it out. Love that crazy dude.

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

I literally said he was responsible for those actions.

Do you not read?

@Smallioz-kromcrush

You can blame Arthas from the time he was a newborn until the moment he touched that sword. Everything between that time is fully the responsibility of Arthas 100%.

Here. Do you see it???

I saw vague words that don’t address the issue. I see you try real hard to avoid addressing Arthas’ choice and what it caused. Instead we get non-answers that refuse to address the same thing together. It is not different than my agreeing that the Orc were also responsible for the centuries that they lived in peace before they were corrupted by the Legion.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

I could not be more clear.

Arthas choices before touching the sword. His responsibility.
Arthas choices after touching the sword. Not his responsibility by a large degree.

Is this clear enough for you?

[Skarm-sentinels (Skarm)]

Much of BFA and all of Shadowlands is just the writers trying to douse a dumpster fire by pouring gallon after gallon of gasoline on it and wondering why it isn’t working.

[Spathy-wyrmrest-accord]

@Julia-icecrown

Metzen wanted Daelin Proudmoore to be wrong. The problem is his later writing, Afrasiabi’s writing, Kosack’s writing, and Danuser’s writing keeps proving Daelin Proudmoore correct.

The forums riot every time there’s even a quest hinting that alliance players are doing something bad so I dunno if most alliance players can handle playing the bad guy role ever-- which they did plenty in wc3 and with scarlet crusade shenanigans.

[Brundar-kelthuzad]

@Spathy-wyrmrest-accord

The forums riot every time there’s even a quest hinting that alliance players are doing something bad so I dunno if most alliance players can handle playing the bad guy role ever-- which they did plenty in wc3 and with scarlet crusade shenanigans.

The whitewashing of Twinbraid is a great example of this.

[Clearpond-wyrmrest-accord]

I remember when the Lightbound draenei were revealed and many alliance(Draenei players especially)went ballistic at the very notion of the draenei turning “evil” including Yrel. Really I’m not sure what to think of it after playing the scenario, many of the draenei were neutral and begging for us to surrender peacefully. It didn’t really appear like either party was at fault and makes believe in the theory that the AU Draenor timeline is dying due to no fault of either race.

Still the very concept of Alliance or alliance aligned character appearing even tiny bit evil would be struck down immediately. It’s almost like blizz wants the burden of the “evil” faction to be the Horde’s to bear alone.

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Spathy-wyrmrest-accord

The forums riot every time there’s even a quest hinting that alliance players are doing something bad so I dunno if most alliance players can handle playing the bad guy role ever-- which they did plenty in wc3 and with scarlet crusade shenanigans.

more like if the horde player can handle it, i mean…look even after so many years…they still cry because of taurajo

[anon70475996]

I think the problem is with the Draenei we have their evil half the eredar so lightforged Draenei being evil is flat out stupid tbh