They were building a stronghold. That qualifies as a threat when the only exchange between them has been war.
They were building a city to live in. Not a stronghold.
Last I checked, building a city doesn’t make someone a threat.
Again, Daelin sailed over, saw Orcs and picked a fight. Jaina protested, but Daelin refused to listen, choosing to be consumed by his pride and his desire for vengeance rather than take the time to listen to his own family.
He’s the bad guy. He did everything wrong and he paid for his misdeeds with his life.
Even his own wife came to see that as true after she went into Thros to rescue her daughter. It’s not hard to understand. Hell, even the Alliance forces under Varian had no interest in pursuing vengeance against the Horde for Daelin’s death, since it was his aggressive actions that got him killed, not the Horde waging war for the sake of war. That’s one of the reasons why Kul Tiras left the Alliance.
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Orgrimmar is a stronghold. You aware of what stronghold means? A fortified place to prevent attack. That’s what Ogrimmar is. It’s even defined as a warrior city. Look it up if you don’t believe me.
The orcs have proven to be a threat even after the humans pacified them, so of course they were a threat. Recall please how the orcs reached Kalimdor.
Daelin was doing his job. That’s what he has been doing since the orcs came through the Dark Portal, fighting them. And maybe it was his pride, maybe it was habit, maybe he just had enough of them attacking the humans, who knows, that guy has been fighting orcs for a long time.
Look I don’t care what you people say about the guy, he was good, he was bad it does not matter. Was he right? Cause I think he was. And I’m a Horde player more than I am Alliance. The orcs didn’t just decide to leave peacefully after that. If you haven’t been paying attention, they continued attacking the Alliance, including nuking his daughter’s little play-house. Which was a legit target, so was Daelin wrong in trying to destroy them? As far as he was concerned he was doing the right thing, he was doing the right thing from the perspective of the Alliance and eventually even his daughter agreed with him, if I’m not mistaken.
And yeah, Varian wasn’t stupid. Cause fighting a war for vengeance is stupid. You don’t fight just to avenge the dead, that’s pointless. You fight it to secure the future of the living and that’s what Varian did, cause again, he wasn’t stupid.
That’s what Orgrimmar is now. And that’s only because Garrosh significantly remodelled the city to turn it into a stronghold, with thick stone walls that had steel reinforcements and a thick gate made of steel.
But when Daelin attacked, Orgrimmar was still under construction and was not a ‘stronghold’ or ‘warrior city’. It didn’t even have walls.
Daelin was not. He was consumed by pride and vengeance and started a war of aggression which he ultimately lost.
The lore literally says he was bad. Jaina believed he was wrong, Katherine changed her mind and was shown that he was bad. The Alliance refused to seek vengeance upon the Horde for his death because he was the aggressor.
He was the bad guy.
That’s what the lore literally says. So pick a different hero to worship.
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He didn’t significantly remodeled it. He reinforced it with metal mostly. The city already had defensive structures like a wall. Check out vanilla wow. That’s how it was designed. To be a stronghold.
And just because Daelin attacked it while it was being built, does not change the fact that it was built as a stonghold.
And Daelin was doing his job, hunting down the orcs who killed alliance soldiers and absconded with several Alliance ships. Are you kidding me? The Lore says he was bad. Well if the lore says you are bad, you just gonna take it or you gonna try to determine why that is. Cause this is what I’m doing here with this guy and I’m not finding any legitimate reasons to call him bad.
What if the lore said Garrithos was good?
And again, that happened AFTER Daelin attacked.
You keep ignoring that point. Orgrimmar was under construction when Daelin attacked. It wasn’t complete yet, it didn’t have walls or a gate. It got walls and gates after the fact, almost as if the Horde had to build that knowing that their city wasn’t safe if the Alliance decided to send over another crazy admiral who craved blood and vengeance.
Now, with the ‘benefit of hindsight’ can you argue that Daelin had the right idea? Sure, you could make that argument. But that doesn’t change what he did, or the fact that he was the bad guy and the aggressor.
As for Garithos, again, he was the bad guy. He was a racist and he tried to execute the Blood Elves for accepting reinforcements after he deliberately deprived the Elves of Alliance forces in the face of a Scourge invasion. Even Matthias Shaw stated that getting killed and eaten by ghouls was better than he deserved.
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And you keep ignoring the fact that the orcs weren’t building a summer home. They were building a stronghold city. That was always what Orgirmmar was meant to be, because it couldn’t be anything else. What you are ignoring is the fact that Daelin was justified in attacking them. They committed crimes against the Alliance by killing the Alliance soldiers and stealing Alliance ships. How do you justify that one?
And no, he wasn’t the bad guy or the aggressor, he was just another soldier doing his job and his job was to stop the orcs and letting them build a fortified city wasn’t exactly doing that, was it?
And thank you for telling me who Garrithos was, I am aware who he was, that’s why I brought him up. The lore could have said he was doing the right thing. Was that true? You objectively look at his orders and actions and can you conclude he was a guy doing the right thing? He was a good guy? Same with Daelin. The lore can brand him whatever, as long as I have eyes to read, I’ll make up my own mind what he was and to me he does not sound like the bad guy. Not the good guy either, but not the bad guy. Just the guy doing his job.
No, I haven’t ignored that. I’ve outright refuted it. Because they weren’t. Not when Daelin attacked them. The ‘stronghold city’ came AFTER Daelin attacked, in response to his aggression.
Again, I refuted this, because he wasn’t justified, at all.
Okay, and?
Those were Lordaeron’s men and ships, not Kul Tiran men and ships. Kul Tiras had no jurisdiction to attempt to claim vengeance for the lives taken and ships stolen. Now you could try to argue: “He was representing the Alliance.” but he wasn’t. He was acting on his own, searching for his daughter, who he feared was dead before he found her.
He literally was. Again, the lore specifically states this. His acts as the aggressor are why the Alliance had no interest in pursuing vengeance against the Horde after they killed him, which is one of the reasons why Kul Tiras abandoned the Alliance.
When the people of Kul Tiras learned of their Lord Admiral’s death, they cried out for vengeance, but the other nations of the Alliance were not interested. Ordeals caused by the plague in Lordaeron were more immediate concerns, and the other allied leaders also had little pity for Daelin’s own aggressive actions. The people of Kul Tiras furiously isolated themselves from the rest of the Alliance, but were not angry with all of the Alliance leaders.
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Is there any racial capital that wouldn’t qualify as a stronghold? The walls sound like a weird argument to focus on.
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Pretty much all of them would in one way or another. Either due to physical walls being constructed, or due to the natural terrain providing defences. Thunder Bluff is a stronghold, but it’s only a stronghold because it’s built on top of a mesa, which can’t easily be reached by Alliance forces.
The point I was making was that during the events of Warcraft 3, when Orgrimmar was being constructed, it didn’t have walls or gates. All it had was natural terrain as the main structures in Orgimmar were still being built at the time. It’s considered a stronghold now, understandably so, but when Daelin Proudmoore attacked it and other Orc settlements, it didn’t, the Horde was still establishing themselves in the region.
But Gunfist would like everyone to believe that it was a massive fortress stronghold back then, that its mere existence was justification for Daelin’s aggressive military campaign. It wasn’t on both counts.
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Actually no, the city was mostly built by the time Daelin attacked. Even Rexxar when he arrives calls it a “warrior city”.
And you failed to provied how he wasn’t justified. I mean the orcs have been at war with humans since they came to the human world. Thrall committed criminal acts against the Alliance by attacking Alliance garrisons, killing Alliance soldiers and stealing Alliance goods. How exactly isn’t he justified? I’d love to hear this one.
Lordaeron was part of the Alliance just as Kul’tiras. You are trying to justify Thrall’s acts based on the notion that it wasn’t personal enough, based on your opinion and therefore not justified. But personal or not, he was the Grand Admiral of the Alliance, not of Kul’tiras, of the Alliance. Understand? He had all the rights, based on the rules of war as I understand them to take action against the orcs who were guilty of crimes against the Alliance. And you are wrong. He was tracking the orcs not his daughter. He found out about the orcs stealing ships and went after them. Stop making up stuff, please.
And again I don’t need to lore to tell me how to characterize a lore figure, I’ll make up my own mind based on their actions. Daelin Proudmoore was simply a soldier who saw too much war and death at the hands of the orcs. Nothing more. He had before him a group of orcs who had committed crimes against the Alliance he was part of and he did his job. The end.
Any human up until the third war would have a lot of reason to “hate the orcs” to the point that said hate became prejudice.
Same for the orcs after the internment camps and both wars. The first and second war showed to humans the worst side of the orcs and the orcs were shown the worst side of the humans in turn.
This is a tragedy on both sides, said tragedy led to many individuals like Daelin for their hate to become something destructive, while the world was healing and maybe heading in times for peace.
Every bad actor has their blame.
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He did purse the orcs when they stole the ships from Southshore yes, as the Humans present on the Darkspear Isles in the prologue campaign are from Kul Tiras. But it is implied that Daelin gave up the chase when the Orcs sailed into the Maelstorm. As you had to be insane to sail through that.
When Daelin learned that his daughter was over on Kalimdor he sailed to bring her home. Only to find the Orcs on Kalimdor as well. Even the ‘daughter of the sea’ song says as much. You know, the song that was changed to paint Jaina as the villain.
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If more Alliance players were like you OP I’d actually maybe start respecting them.
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Daelin returned to Kul Tiras and, taking a large part of the Kul Tiras fleet, sailed across the Great Sea to Kalimdor in order to search for his daughter and the survivors that fled there after Lordaeron fell to the Scourge.
Also, the lyrics for Daughter of the Sea make it clear why he sailed to Kalimdor.
When she did flee across the ocean deep
The admiral followed west
What else but sail to save a daughter’s life
And pray she still drew breath
So no, I’m not lying, you’re just misremembering.
When the lore says someone is a bad guy, he’s a bad guy. You fantasizing that he’s the good guy doesn’t make it so.
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