This is tragic. For god’s sake, can’t we just accept it is tragic? Jaina fled the Eastern Kingdoms to save people. Her father came to save her and her people. It was all misunderstood, and her father died for it. She has suffered for it ever since. Stop trying to justify either side and just admit, so many people hurt from this. Tragic. And let the truth of the situation and feelings sink into you.
This was a tragic misunderstanding that might not ever be fixed. And that mirrors real life.
He hated the orcs. Not gonna blame him for that. He fought them for a long time, lost men to them. He was a soldier and did what soldiers do. Kill the enemy. I’m not gonna crap on the character for that.
Did he? Some of his statements make it sound like when he left as far as he knew she was still in the EK.
I wouldn’t call launching unprovoked attacks on innocents (Darkspears), trying to assassinate the leader of the Horde under the illusion of a ‘peace meeting’, ignoring his own daughter and calling her naive. Even though she thought a literal demonic army alongside the Horde. Then he was given one last chance to surrender and go home and he refused as a “misunderstanding”. Daelin brought his death upon himself. He lost himself to vengeance and even if Jaina stood by his side, he would’ve lost. Hence why Katharine would later say, “you could not save him, from himself”.
Okay?
Doesn’t change that he did wrong. Hating Orcs because of what they did is understandable. Especially since he lost his son Derek to the Horde during the Second War. Starting a war with the Horde when they were at peace and NOT trying to wage war/slaughter innocents, while also ignoring his daughter’s objections was wrong.
As I said, even his own wife saw that what he did was wrong.
When your own family thinks you did the wrong thing and that wrong thing cost many people their lives, that’s a problem.
Never said it did. If everyone did the right thing, every time, it wouldn’t be very interesting in my opinion. And I don’t think a navy man would let his wife or kid tell him how to do his job. The Admiral saw an opportunity to end a threat and he went for it like he was expected to.
But it wasn’t a threat.
The Horde was not a threat at that time. The Horde was simply existing. They weren’t building war machines, they weren’t invading Theramore or killing humans. They were just… there. Existing in an area, doesn’t make them a threat.
Again, that’s the issue.
Well actually they had just finished butchering the quillboar and Centuar tribes to make a home for themselves, So I wouldn’t exactly just call that existing.
Two while they were not a threat at the time doesn’t mean they wouldn’t become one in time. That was daelins point is that as soon as they had the strength, they would be a threat and they proved that he was right.
Thirdly the alliance was just there existing as well after this and yet the horde deemed them a threat afterwards and tried to wipe them out. Whether that be by grom and his people or later by garrosh and sylvanas.
The Horde has never had a period of peace on kalimdor.
Okay, so several points you made here are wrong.
Butchering the Quillboar and Centaur tribes? There’s no evidence they did that. We get quests to drive them out of territory the Horde now considers theirs, and quests to punish the Quillboar/Centaur for attacking the Horde or pre-emptively hitting them to prevent them from becoming a larger problem, but never to outright slaughter them for the sake of it.
Point 2 and 3 both combine together, which is that the Alliance engaged in provocative war-like actions first. For all Theramore and Jaina’s talks of peace, she was very quick to let the Alliance use her city as a staging ground for assaults on Horde territory during the Cataclysm, and even sent her own forces into Durotar to engage in espionage and take territory that the Horde considered their own.
Did Garrosh help matters at all? No, but to pretend that the Alliance was merely ‘existing’ by the time when Horde and Alliance tensions boiled over into war during the Cataclysm is brushing aside a whole lot of what the Alliance did, which is disingenuous.
“The land was originally part of the Barrens,[3] and was mostly controlled by the Razormane tribe quilboar. During the Third War, the Horde arrived and the orcs led by Warchief Thrall drove much of them away.”
"Displaced from Durotar by Orcs, quilboar have built crude villages along the river that separates the orc nation from the Barrens. From there, they strike out across the river to raid settlements or deeper into the Barrens to attack caravans along the Gold Road. "
“as the tauren chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof and his Bloodhoof tribe befriended the Horde’s Warchief Thrall. Their two peoples joined forces and their combined power crashed down on the centaur warbands, sending the horse-men limping out of the Barrens in defeat.[33]”
Regarding your other points, why is it the Horde got to decide what lands were theres and what were the Alliances, They were both strangers to the land. Certainly didn’t stop the horde invading places like ashenvale
Did you even read what you quoted?
I stated that yes, they did drive the Quillboar from Durotar, but driving the Quillboar out is not the same thing as engaging in slaughtering tribes. Considering that the Razormane Tribe, that once inhabited Durotar, was able to build new villages in the Barrens and attack the Horde in retaliation, there was clearly no ‘tribe slaughter’, otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to do that.
Because they can? They claimed Durotar for themselves, making it very clear that was their territory. Large portions of the Barrens were claimed by them as well, although Northwatch Hold was built when that territory was still considered ‘neutral ground’ and thus when it was built it didn’t cause any issues. It only became an issue when Daelin took the Hold for himself and used it as a staging ground for his own attacks against the Horde. Jaina, much later, didn’t like the fact that it was still being used, but was under considerable pressure from the Alliance to keep it in play, so she did.
When the Alliance invaded the Barrens during the Cataclysm, took territory, laid siege to and wiped out Camp Taurajo and attacked the Gates of Mulgore they were the aggressors. And they were only able to get their forces into that area because Jaina allowed the Alliance to use her city of Theramore as a staging ground. If they wanted to attack the Barrens without Jaina’s support (because let’s say she wasn’t two faced and actually wanted peace), they’d have needed to bribe the goblins (unlikely) or make the long march through Night Elf territory.
Instead, because Jaina was two-faced and allowed the Alliance to use her city, they were able to build a large highway through Dustwallow Marsh, taking them directly into the Barrens.
Oh, I find it cute you think one that the Horde didn’t slaughter the quillboar to take their lands. You think the quillboar just simply left and gave the horde the lands?
Amazing that the horde gets to decide what is aggression and what isn’t, what a privilege that is.
And yet, as I said in my above post, the Razormane Tribe was able to rebuild and quickly start attacking the Horde. Raiding their villages and caravan routes.
If the Horde had engaged in the slaughtering of tribes, as you claim (despite the fact that only one Quillboar Tribe lived in that area), then the Razormane Quillboar would not have had the strength to rebuild and engage in raids as they have done.
Unless you think the Quillboar can be slaughtered en-masse and instantly regrow their population as fast as mobs respawn.
Regardless, you’ve attempted to shift this topic in a different direction, so I’m going to move back to what it’s actually about. Daelin Proudmoore and the fact that he is not innocent. He did a lot wrong and he paid for it, as he should have.
The orcs also did a lot of wrong and paid for it by settling in an arid wasteland that is at the mercy of trade with the Night Elves.
Agreed?
If Jaina had listened to daelin and helped stop the horde there and then. then the Night elves and her own people wouldn’t have had to pay a price for her wishful thinking.
Again Daelin was proven right by the Horde. He deserved better from his daughter.
or had daelin never destroyed durotar, the night elves wouldn’t have had to pay the price for his cruelty
Allliance - humans cuts down some trees
Horde - Better go genocide a completely unrelated party for that slight.
Nice, you gotta minimise exactly what he did, wouldn’t want people to realise there is a cause and effect
That is the official lore, so yes, that’s correct.
Thousands would have been slaughtered, including many veterans who helped Jaina’s forces and the Night Elves defeat the Burning Legion, which would have been considered a serious betrayal, including many who had nothing to do with the Horde’s past crimes, such as the Darkspear Trolls and the Tauren.
Daelin was wrong. His daughter thought so, as did his own wife. End of story.
Daelin was never going to win the conflict. That was the point and one of the main overarching themes of WC3. Vengeance will be the death of you. Either literally or metaphorically. Arthas became the very thing he swore to destory (scourge). Maeiv was captured on an another world, then in TBC when she finally did get her vengeance on Illidan, she felt nothing. Not relief, justice or anything. Just nothing. And Daelin became just like the Orcs, filled with bloodlust attacking any group that was in a positive relationship with the Horde. Such as the Darkspear and from a certain point of view, his own daughter. It is as such said to Arthas by Uther back at the start of the human campaign. “We are Paladins, vengeance cannot be apart of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, we will become as vile as the Orcs”.
Even if Jaina fought alongside her father, he still would have lost. Even Katharine came to realize that in BFA when she goes looking for Jaina in Thros.