You’re going to see a minimum of 5 shamans per raid for utility/buffs anyway, think we’ll be ok.
Shaman is one of the most in demand classes in TBC, you bring hero and totems, and the Damage ele does is good, it’s not warlock, but they don’t bring hero, totems and any real utility like a shaman.
Like if they are gonna rebalance shaman for better DPS, then they would need to buff mage and rogue greatly to compensate for their lack of raw utility also to be more inline with warlock and hunter.
You gotta stop worrying about trying to make every class the same in terms of damage or healing output and think about it in terms of contributing to the raid; Shaman contributes no matter the spec in massive ways; far better than any other class can in PvE, and the only other class that’s competitive like shaman are Druids…
IMO if they were gonna rebalance Shaman would be at the very short end of that stick.
Does Flame Shock not do fire damage?
20 yard range on a spell that has a weak crit and receives little from the spell coefficient is not the banger of an argument that you think it tis.
While we’re add it why can’t shamans taunt? I mean are they not sarcastic enough? How hard is it to hurl an insult at an enemy?
“You smell like a leper gnome” “Your mother was a murloc”
I mean look. That was easy.
Really, warriors druids and pallies have a huge tanking increase over shamans that is based solely on the benefit from taunt and not because they are interesting or unique. That is not good design. Isn’t now a unique oppurtunity to be proactive and fix something that was CLEARLY an oversight?
We are going to see an absurd amount of pally warrior and druid tanks based on poor design. That’s not fun. Why support a bad design when we can change it to encourage more diversisty?
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Enhancement certainly likes it.
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The irony being that Shaman do have a pseudo-taunt in Stoneclaw totem.
Considering the totem, not the shaman, taunts, and it breaks like an eggshell, more with the pseudo…less with the taunt.
Opposite of holy is void magic
Re: the tongue in cheek diatribe on taunt…
I mean, no one is arguing for a new class mechanic, so this whole line is cute and kinda funny, but falls apart upon even the most delicate of scrutiny. The fact is that every other spell-based DPS class benefits from this debuff. It would be like if the Improved Faerie Fire said “Increases the chance the target will be hit by melee and ranged attacks by swords, two handed swords, maces, two handed maces, axes, two handed axes, bows and guns. But not daggers. @#$% daggers.”
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I think it was excluded because they just combined two debuffs into one in 2.4.3 and then added the other schools in literally the next patch because they realized they screwed up. Doesn’t mean they will retcon the fix into Classic TBC, but to argue that it was intentional doesn’t make sense seeing as they adjusted it the very next time a patch was rolled out (Wrath pre-patch).
Now, if you want to argue that Nature was intentionally excluded from original vanilla and that chained into the TBC version, I might be inclined to agree with you, but that was more due to shaman being designed first and foremost as healers, with a lot of hybrid mixed in. Elemental talents do really shine, but outside of that they don’t get much at all that is on par with other dps casters in terms of debuffs and damage boosts.
imagine if warlocks were 100% opposite of mage abilities lol.
Instead of Blinking forward you blink backwards
Instead of Slow Fall you fall more rapidly when used
Instead of Buffing intellect you reduce the intellect of a foe
ect ect
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because lol shamans
the Void is cold and filled with purple lighting… so there is frost and arcane
Shaman abilities, talents and damage were balanced with coe as-is. Giving a 10% damage buff for shaman while nice for the shaman, doesn’t seem fair when lower utility pure classes like mage and rogues could also use a damage buff. Every raid will already have five shaman. The class doesn’t need any buffs in pve.
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The request is not for a “spell-based dps class” to benefit from the buff. The OPs request is for a HYBRID class to be buffed damage wise because it’s not fair that 2 PURE DPS classes out damage it. Shaman is not a spell-based DPS class they are a spell-based HYBRID class.
Most of my sarcasm was based on the OP’s quotes:
No, they have a 25% damage increase over shaman and druids because shamans and druids are NOT dps classes. They are HYBRID classes. They CAN dps but that is NOT their role. Their role is HYBRID. A SUPPORT style of play. Jack of all trades, master of none.
The argument being made here is that a hybrid class that can serve multiple roles should do as much damage as a class who’s entire purpose is to DPS.
There are four dps classes in the game. Warlock, Hunter, Mage, and rogue. That’s it. The first three should be top of any raid in classic TBC. (Mage’ll be higher than people think due to kill times). Rogue is actually decent dps but gets royally screwed by mechanics. If anyone should have their damage buffed, it should be rogues.
Shaman, warriors, druids, pallys, and priest are all HYBRID classes in one aspect or another. Shaman and priest are HEALER HYBRIDS. Healers who CAN dps or dps who can heal. Either way, under NO circumstance should a class that CAN dps but can also heal out dps a class that does nothing BUT dps.
Warriors are tank HYBRIDS and both pallies and druids are jack of all trade HYBRIDS. None of them should do anywhere close to the dps of a pure dps class either.
One of the biggest oversights of classic wow is that warriors are dps gods despite being a hybrid class. That wasn’t the case back in vanilla but after 15 years people figured the game out and better itemization…etc. This is fixed somewhat in TBC.
My sarcasm was me mocking the claim that a HYBRID class should have it’s damage buffed to be more in line with a class that is pure DPS. It’s absurd.
Hybrid classes, as you would call them, already do benefit from the debuff. Balance druids, shadow priests both are included in the debuff.
This is also a juvenile way to look at the game. Hybrid the way you are using it assumes that the game only has 3 types of classes: tank, healer, and dps. In reality, it’s not remotely that simple. Warlocks bring raid wide debuffs, strong crowd control and utility like summoning, soulstones and healthstones. They are far from a “pure dps class.”
Finally, the ELEMENTAL shaman is not a hybrid, and especially not in TBC. It is a nature-based DPS caster. Yes, it has some party-wide buffing that it does, but as mentioned so does the warlock. Itemization in TBC gets rid of all the +healing and useless strength, agility and spirit on gear, and the elemental shaman is a full-fledged caster DPS. As I mentioned before, when Blizz combined Curse of Shadows and Curse of Elements in 2.4.3, they literally added nature in the next patch (3.0.0), so if it was intentional to not make the elemental shaman too good, why the almost immediate adjustment?
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You can’t really make an argument based on a wotlk pre-patch when a ton of other things were changed, rebalanced classes, let alone new talents.
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It’s not a “juvenile” way of looking at the game. It’s design policy. The game DOES only have three types of roles. They are DPS, healer, and tank. That is how the game was designed. Some classes were designed to fill multiple of those roles. Those are known as hybrids. That is how MMOS were designed back then. That is how WOW was designed.
MMOs (including Wow) were designed around the three role concept that existed back then. A simple google search will tell you that. Classes were given various unique abilities or “utility” to encourage a variety of classes to be brought to a raid. But they were still based on the three roles. Any class that can fill multiple of those roles is known as a hybrid. Traditional MMO design was that hybrid classes should be weaker than pure classes.
Nobody brings a warlock to a 5 man or a raid so they sit there and summon during boss fights. Being able to summon to a dungeon is a benefit of the class sure but their main purpose is to do or increase raid dps. That is there role, to cause damage. And yes they are a pure dps class. Why? Because they cannot heal and they cannot tank. They can ONLY dps. That makes them a dps class.
Shaman can dps OR heal. All it takes to go from one role to the other is a respec. Therefore elemental shaman IS a hybrid. You know how i can tell? Because they STILL have the ability to heal. Speccing elemental does NOT remove that ability and therefore does NOT make them dps class.
Speccing elemental is NOT permanent. If you could not respec then sure, elemental shaman could be considered a dps class cause they wouldn’t be able to switch to a healer. But respeccing exists. If a shaman wants to switch from dpsing to healing, all they have to do is spend some gold. Because they are a hybrid. If a warlock wants to switch from dps to healing, they have to create an entirely new character. Because they are a dps class. That is all they can do.
When wow was designed, it was designed around this trinity of roles that existed at the time. It was designed to have classes that can spec into multiple roles be weaker at those roles than classes who cannot.
I also NEVER said hybrid classes shouldn’t or couldn’t benefit from the debuff. I said a shaman should NOT be able to do as much damage as a warlock, given that a shaman can also be a healer and a warlock cannot.
The OPs comments (Not just the first post but all combined) are asking for COE to benefit nature spells so that shamans can do almost or even as much damage as warlocks and hunters. The argument is that you’re going to have a bunch of warlocks and hunters in every raid and you should be able to bring ele shamans instead.
Shamans already make the best healers. Every 25 man raid is going to have 3-4 resto shamans compared to 1 resto druid and 1 holy priest and 1 holy pally. They already dominate a role. Not to mention that you’ll automatically have an ele shaman and an enh shaman in every raid as well. 5-6 out of the 25 people are going to be freaking shamans already.
With that in mind, there is NO reason AT ALL that you should buff shaman damage to be on par with locks and hunters. That is TERRIBLE class design. “Hmm, should i roll i hunter, i can do really good damage? No, i should roll a shaman cause then i can dps or heal as needed. With a simple respec.”
Why would anyone EVER roll a dps class if a hybrid class could dps just as well while having the option to heal whenever needed.
If you don’t like the designations “dps, healer, tank, hybrid” then I suggest you find another game. That is how this one was designed.
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I mean, I would accept this logic if it were 2.4.4, or 2.5, but the fact it’s a 3.0 patch means it’s not just a patch for slight adjustments- it’s the literal next version of the game.
Wrath had a very different design philosophy than TBC; almost every debuff/buff gets 2 or 3 versions among the different classes, hybrid dps was buffed to be around the same as pure dps, and this was all intentional to fit their new “bring the player, not the class” philosophy.
That elements change didn’t happen in a vaccuum, nor did it happen because they felt like they made a mistake the previous patch. It happened because the new game design said we don’t mind if hybrids get actual, solid dps, instead of utility.
The same patch buffed the hell out of moonkin, shadowpriest, ret, and feral dps, and gave their unique utilities to several other specs. It was a new game; every class got the utilities, and every class could do damage.
If you’re going to pull forward 1 change from that patch, to fix one hybrid, why are you ok with ignoring the others? And if you’re going to pull all of it forwards, then you have WotLK design philosophy in TBC; when does TBC get to have TBC philosophy?