I think this is a good point for a lot of what is being talked about here. While sure, incidentally perpetuating harmful stereotypes is at least irresponsible, I think willful and intention hate-driven, racially motivated actions are far worse and more worthy of attack and ridicule than someone fetishizing, or just lazily representing a group of people.
I don’t justify either as good things, but one is worthy of a face punching, while the other might be worth a "Hey man, that’s not cool.
Gilneans are Victorian English, Taurens are Native Americans (or loosely presented as such, they don’t have any exact tribe details), Trolls’re a strange blend of Jamaican and Aztec and Pandaren are a strange blend of eastern cultures with stronger leanings towards Chinese, some would say that’s playing with fire.
Nothing is new under the sun. You’ll be hard-pressed to find something that doesn’t have some influence or nod towards history. It’s endearing. It also provides contrast for cultures that don’t exist in the real world and are exclusive to Warcraft.
I don’t think it’s racist.
Probably? But I can’t fight every battle.
But then they also incorporate aspects of cultures like the Mongols and Japanese, especially in WC3. The nelves are in a similar position where they’re a weird blend of Celtic and Shinto.
Is it the opinion of the council that these aspects are racist or no?
You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of master.
In my experience actual racists are ignorant of these sorts of things anyway. On Grobb at least where there was a racist troll (not the fun aforementioned kind) guild they just used human PCs to reenact hate crimes. With the appropriate skin pigments complete with white robes and hoods on the white humans in case you were slow on the uptake.
So we’re arguing over nothing really. I played this game in my formative years and seeing American Indian minotaurs didn’t lead me to march around with a tiki torch. Bigots do not need WoW lore for their bizarre beliefs- they have their own unrelated weird lore for that.
Now that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t poke Blizz to do better where applicable but I don’t think any of this is causing actual problems.
Not to get too tangential, but it will definitely be interesting to see how AI evolves and creates some truly original stuff, narratively speaking.
At least to my mind, concerning the trolls, it isn’t necessarily racist to merely utilize aspects of Mesoamerican and African cultures in the creation of a fantasy race. As has been pointed out it is really, really hard to imagine something that one has absolutely no frame of reference for. 99% of all fictional civilizations are some blend of existing cultures coupled with a handful of unique traits the creator dreamed up to make them more distinct and the trolls fall into that same ballpark nicely.
It only becomes iffy when you take the race you made that is a melange of various subjugated indigenous groups that suffered from colonization and enslavement and also write them as dull witted, barbaric savages who constantly lose every engagement and simply aren’t as competent as the more civilized, sophisticated, and distinctly European races.
Goblins if anything appear to be more based on Noir style new jersery & new york gangstas. I can picture a goblin with a tommy gun. At least from Cata onwards. Also helps that the Goblin themed gang in Hearthstone is also set around that theme.
What? How can you do this? This is outrageous, it’s unfair.
The Darkspear, to me at least, are largely portrayed as “the good ones” of the culture they’re inspired from. Trolls in general are shown as racist and violent who at best, need to get over losing their land, while at worst, deserve to lose their land for being evil.
The Darkspear are seen as good because they were willing to give up the bad parts of their culture. But Blizzard has never bothered to display the good parts for years. On top of that, the other horde races still see them as barbaric and bloodthirsty. I think even Shadows of the Horde showed trolls learning from Tauren as being sellouts to their people.
To start with your Kul’tiran: If they are primarily Kul’tiran, with all of their tongue in cheek fun but with a traveling Middle Eastern or North African aesthetic, I find little issue with it. If thats the established Wastewanderer lore, I don’t see much issue there either.
A people’s clothing is beyond just cultural, its practical. Clothing in the desert is not heavy, long, and loose because of some cultural signifier, but because it absorbs heat within the clothing but never transfers it to the skin, kinda a built in fan you could say as the thinkness retains the heat long enough to lose it, and the looseness offers airflow, not to mention avoiding things like sun burn/poisoning. So the aesthetic is primarily practical, but then made cultural in any variety of way either by the colors, styles, patterns, etc. If you’re wearing anything else on a hot, sunny, desert day you’re probably in for a bad time.
That said there are other ways to do desert clothing from the SW First Nations to those around the Taklamakan desert, or Western China. They chose to go with the North African, which is all good and well, though I feel as if the reasoning they went for it is less than great. I remember Uldum as just Indiana Jones. Indianan Jones of course based off of early archeological/anthropological runs to Egypt for the tombs which is just rife with racism. Though of course punch your local N@zi. Beyond all of that though which is out of our control, as long as you’re not going around as some orientalist stereotype, I think you’re fine.
To the Tauren: I’ve currently been maining a tauren and RPing one as well. Its near impossible to not fall into the trap, though I and my guild do what we can. We enjoy the tauren, we don’t particularly enjoy how badly they and First Nations are portrayed. The twist on the big angry dumb minotaur brute as largely peaceful, spiritual, and wise tauren is nice and very welcoming. The lumping it into the congealed First Nations stereotype and “Stoic Indian” not so much. There are a few ways we’ve tried to address it from being traditionally nomadic to quickly being sedentary. Don’t know what housing is just right yet, grand forges are new to us, what is farming, ect. Tauren come from a wide range of places in Kalimdor, we try to attribute certain regions with the First Nations there in the best ways we can. Those from Feralas have a more NW feel, whereas Barrens feel more Plains, Swamp of Sorrows Florida/SE, ect.
Highmountain was a mild redemption with different tribal traditions and cultures, more established buildings (though still not the plank houses you’d expect), and one’s geography did determine what they did (think of the Ironhorn tribe in the mountains). So we as players try to do a better job, but ultimately its on Blizzard to improve that image/representation.
Perhaps more Hun than Mongol? The Magyar people have a traditional belief that they originate from the Great Steppe, similar to Mongolian Steppe, and that they are descendants of the Huns (Attila is still a normal name in modern Magyar culture.) That may be the inspiration where the culture of living in tents and riding out in raiding parties comes in.
But that whole Japanese influence in writing orcish culture… I’m not sure how much that’s used as a basis now.
It was touched on as recently as WoD with the AU Burning Blade, and they’re arguably expanding on the visual elements in WC3R.
I love when Alliance players often call the Horde races(Especially Trolls) as if all their shtick were just “Racism and Xenophobia” when the Humans of this game are really exceptional on that deparment and can be considered to be even more racist than any other race.
Take a few examples from the War Campaign in the Alliance side:
https://i.imgur.com/iHO4OZj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IxQn4fw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FlFR2YD.jpg
Observe how many times this Brigadier shows only disdane for not only the people but also the very land of Zandalar “light-forsaken place” (puff at least Zandalar doesn’t produce Twilight cultists from their Cathedral)
Another interesting look inside of the humans of Stormwind and probably toward alliance only writers too.
This comes from the first part of the questline of Saurfang:
SI:7 Agent says: Well, well… what do we have here?
SI:7 Agent says: Seems a couple of Hordies got lost. VERY lost.
SI:7 Agent says: Does that area look brown and filthy to you, Hordies?
SI:7 Agent says: Sure seems green to me. Not like Horde lands at all.
SI:7 Agent says: Let’s send them back on their way then, shall we?
SI:7 Agent says: My daggers can point 'em in the right direction!
Sure you can argue the Dark Ranger and the Horde PC are intruders but for the factions that preaches peace, love, understanding and horse, doesn’t seems to be a bit racist to say the hord only live filthy land?
You can be both professional and respect your opponents
Bonus Bran: https://i.imgur.com/tHme77D.jpg
Ok so not getting over invaders that sacked your land is evil? Wonder what you think of Greymane and the Gilneas in general, though I can guess already you probably will pull some arguments they’re justify for reasons and are the good guys.
Still hilarious to see the alliance players cling into their self righteous fantasy that is promoted by mediocre writers with the Golden Boy
Trolls aren’t a caricature of such stereotypes. It’s absurb to say they’re as the Nelves are just some caricature of the Hippies or Extremist groups pro Nature
I’m sure you are misreading what I’m saying.
It’s more than just that…but teepees and totem poles are from completely distinct indigenous cultures. Teepees are associated with various nations of Plains Indians, while totem poles come from West Coast First Nations. It’s like giving a race pizzas and kilts and calling them “European”.
But they are European
What is European, exactly? Is it a distinct culture?
Blizzard actually does European cultures…specific ones. Like Cockney British. But the Tauren get generic “Indian,” which is a mash-up of cultures that are as distinct as Scotland and Italy.
Assuming that “totem pole” is a universal signifier for “Indian” fails to recognize that most North American First Nations cultures had nothing to do with totem poles. Again, it’s like assuming that Italian men must wear kilts because kilts are a European thing, aren’t they?
Sidenote: I don’t know if it’s still the case, but Pizza Hut in the UK used to have a Pizza called “American” because it had corn on it. 