Within the narrative that is certainly the case. In the narrative, the adventurers were justified in killing those murlocs/gnolls/whatever, because of “reasons”. It’s similar in how demons, faceless or undead are written. We have a good reason for trying to kill them, mostly because they are constantly trying to do the same to us.
You must have mistaken me for someone else. This character would burn Orgrimmar to the ground, without feeling an ounce of pity. Sure that is because of what the Horde has done to him, but he’s not exactly a paragon of virtue.
They attacked first. Hardly assassination then, is it? More like self defense.
You really cannot turn off the Alliance victim complex or your Horde hate for like 3 seconds can you? Both Faction have it horrific, but in different ways.
But no, those Saurfang cinematics were the textbook definition of lipservice. They espoused ideals and ideas that the Faction was supposed to represent, but were not allowed to tangibly count UNTIL it was convenient for Sylvanas’ story that they be allowed to be. Which is why Teldrassil itself was nearly written out of the Horde’s BFA story. It could not exist because that would mean that characters other than Saurfang (who was largely removed from that story) would be expected to act in response to those ideals and themes he was acting on. All of them needed to be made convenient until allowed. Which is why you have Derek being manufactured as that catalyst for outrage at a convenient time.
And god … yes, I would be perfectly fine if the Alliance were to be “black” for a while. Horde acts of Black never result in Alliance character deaths, just locations … and Horde players care far less about locations than Alliance players seem to. Because our character roster is in shambles. Frankly, the Alliance being “allowed to take their gloves off” only bothers me because it seems pretty clear that many Alliance posters also expect Blizz “to keep their hands clean” while they do. Its not about “injecting some grey” (because truly, the Alliance has none left), its about “reasserting an expected power fantasy”. The expectation that they be ALL good and ALL powerful. Just like Legion built them up to be.
I can only fathom the negative blowback from Alliance players if Blizz allowed them to go really dark (or even grey) … but didn’t continue to habitually come in to whitewash, invalidate, or bury those acts under justifications to the point they’re proven prestine and right in the end. Like they ALWAYS do. If Blue Players react this way to Blizz infringing on their expected Power Fantasy in BfA, I can only imagine how they’d react if Blizz infringed so heavily on their Moral Righteousness in a story. Especially if they do what they did with the Horde in BfA and don’t even bother thinking of reasons (let along valid ones) for those “Black” acts.
Actually YOU were the one that “slinked out” after I proved you “nuuhh, yu!!” answer was no actual answer whatsoever.
Well let me see:
The King Midas myth was basically a moral lesson about how opulence may seem the key to a “happy and meaningful life”… but it actually isn´t. It´s sharing the experience of living with people beloved to us and being grateful of the stuff we get with our own hard work the actual things that makes our life worth living in the first place -ergo, his despair and realization in how his “golden touch” wasn´t only his guaranteed eventual demise (I mean the guy couldn´t even eat nor drink cause things would literally become solid upon any type of contact) but a curse that condemned him to a lonely life (turning his daughter into an opulent decoration was probably traumatic enough in itself).
And this is just one myth. Take Aracne´s for example. It´s a cautionary tale about how “vanity and pride” can end up making a literal monster out of yourself -as any ancient civilization, Greeks used their “Gods / Goddesses” as the vehicle to execute rightful punishment, and mind you, the Goddess who cursed Aracne was no one but the embodiment of WISDOM.
And so on and so fort… so little guy, if you tough making an arrogant aseveration questioning the importance myths and legends had in the cultural development of humanity would make you look smart, let me tell you it actually made you look the opposite.
Dude, killing is killing, period. We just have the wrong belief that killing a Murloc is somehow less “evil” cause the narrative frames our characters as massive Mary Sues / Gary Stus that can literally get away with ANYTHING just for the lols. And that happens because thanks to the nature of the very game itself, our characters are literal self inserts designed to stroke our egos 24/7 (ergo why when the game starts with moralizing BS focused on the players well… the players DON´T like it. Like at all).
When you actually analyze their stuff -and the stuff of ancient India, and China and the Aztec myths and so on-, you realize all those “tales” are basically not different from modern religious beliefs and “parameters for salvation” (in a more antropological sense, it´s basically a huge message telling people to behave decently and to learn to COEXIST with other people; because when people acts like a douche, people gets isolated and simply compromise their survival; something absolutelly logical when one takes into account the Humans irl are but another example of social animals… and social animals that get isolated from their groups don´t live long).
There must be an offensive part about the mountain of Alliance excuses somewhere.
Yes, a mountain of excuses.
And now the Alliance will become “evil”. Some kind of senseless war, genocide, all that. And then? Will you be happy when Anduin dies, thus redeeming the entire Alliance, including Tyrande? No excuses, no guilt, only Anduin’s death, and the Horde would be guilty again if attacked.
And then Tyrande will rise to the head of the Alliance, with Sylvanas’s argumentation (logical in relation to the Horde), carry out the genocide of the Blood Elves or the Forsaken, blow up Nordrassil wisps, open a portal to the layer of Arcane Magic (?) … And then I got carried away.
Hmm. The radical solution to the arcane problem is to destroy its layer! YES! Let’s free you from temptation! (Crazy laughter and screaming).
As a rule, I do not care about Alliance characters dying. I will never call for it. I do not expect it. I care that my continually bare bones Horde character roster continues to become even more bare bones. In this exceedingly hero driven game, which means finding relevance is increasingly difficult.
Also, where exactly were we redeemed? When in fact? Blizz once again used the WC3 vision of the Horde as a way to simply justify why they couldn’t destroy a player faction in game; but I’ve seen zero effort by them to actually redeem the faction. Or rebuild it. We’ve instead run off to another dimension (again), to avoid the consequences (again), of Blizz using the faction as a plot device to settup a future expac and villain (again). Outside of Blizz constantly and actively shaming Horde players for what they chose to do with our Faction … I fail to see where we were redeemed? If Blizz can’t even bother thinking up reasons we started the WoT … they probably won’t do anything substantive or meaningful to rebuild or redeem us. Frankly, Sylvie’s likely to get more effort and time put into her on that front than we are.
Actually most reasonably people believe the best course is not to kill in the first place regardless of the “reasons” -reason why you know… modern legal systems mostly focus on “punishing” criminals by proxy of privating them of other rights (usually freedom) and not merely by proxy of privating them of their right to exist in the first place.
Rationalizing the killing of other individuals is that: a construct of the logical mind the humans invented to justify their actions at any point in history. But sure as hell it ISN´T a construct made to impart and actual moral message nor much less impart actual wisdom focused into teaching our coming generations HOW TO SURVIVE AS SPECIES (I mean the very premise of “killing our own species” seems plain contradictory to “surviving as species”).
We Humans rationalizing our bad behaviours doesn´t suddenly made those bad behaviours “rightful”, “constructive” nor much less “positive” for the rest of the planet ffs (the planet climate is going to hell precisely thanks to our perchant for “rationalizing and/or justifying” our own detrimental practices).
Now on regards to the topic… are you aware THIS (“rationalizing the murder of fellow / similar species”) is literally what Sylvanas did in BfA to achieve her ends, and it´s the reason she is still 100% following this premise to destroy everything to achieve a vague “benefit”?
“I have no argument therefore I´ll resort to insults to prove my point”!!
Ty for not dissapointing in regards to the scope of your argumentative skills… as I said: not smart at all.
Not sure if that’s true, but it is rather irrelevant to what I said. Which was more about that something like self defense killing is clearly considered more acceptable than murder killing.
We’re discussing situations where alternatives aren’t viable.
Various reasons go into why nations do or don’t support the death penalty. It is ineffective and has a higher risk of greater loss when in error.
And sometimes (not necessarily most of the time), said thought process is correct.
I don’t consider a notion of objective morality. It is all a construct regarding what is right or wrong. A behavior is bad or good based on the judgment applied.
I responded to the term killing, not murder.
What is your point? People can hold similar positions but differ on application.
From a “legal” point of view. But not by an ethical / moralistic one -I mean, killing is a “mortal sin that will condemn you to eternal suffering and damnation” if you are a believer of the Abrahamic religions… which makes most of the Western hemisphere-.
Actually no, we´re discussing if there´s a moral disctinction between killing a member of the other faction and killing a rando native species less fortunate than our PCs -that was my original point: that it is a little bit ridiculous to come here to preach about our characters being “these moral heroes” when the game literally constructed them as amoral mercenaries that kill rando individuals for a cosmetic rewards in the leveling process and kept them in the same state after reaching max level and so on…
Explain the part about “higher risk of greater loss”… and go back and read again my point about killing humans NOT being used ever as an educational tool to teach humans how to survive in the first place (AKA the whole basis of most modern religious belief systems… there´s a reson why our religious beliefs don´t teach us to kill our firstborn in a sacrificial altar if it´s raining too much this season).
I´d say a behaviour is right or wrong actually taking into account the consequences it´s execution had on the whole environment being subjected to the aforementioned behaviour (humans and Earth´s climate degradation my man…).
My point is you can´t come here saying “you” (as in your avatar / PC) is the best thing that ever happened to Azeroth from a moral PoV (taking into account a lot of the actionsundertaken by PCs are VERY morally questionable and cimented in mere pride/arrogance) just to degenerate into a Bloodthirsty maniac demanding “justice” from the “sins commited against you!!” -I mean man… the very premise basicvally obliterates the image of “moral highground”-.
Only if you look at the surface. If a person is making life significantly worse for everyone else around them, or are killing people, and have no intention to change their ways, it would actually be beneficial for everyone else if that person ceased to be a problem, whether through incarceration or death. One is more expensive for the collective however. Of course, one must also weigh the moral pros and cons.
But we have really gone off track here. Like seriously.
Right, except we know that Sylvanas is not correct. You seem to think that killing anyone, for any reason at all, is morally bankrupt. That is nothing but black and white thinking. Reasons matter. A lot. Circumstances matter even more.
Most Western followers of those faiths don’t believe the letter of the religion. Which is why the United States can have mostly Christian senators, reps, presidents, governors, and voters while also being engaged on numerous wars and hating welfare.
That’s a specific application. But as I quoted you saying, ‘killing is killing’. That’s the idea I’m pointing at.
Sure, I don’t disagree with that broader point.
If you incorrectly kill someone, you can’t undo it. If you incorrectly imprison someone, you can marginally make up for the harm.
I mean, if we don’t allow some killing (self defense), that’s teaching a significantly worse survival message.
Some modern religions do support things like war.
To me, I consider that a useless description, no offense. Morality is a system to guide people how they should act. Something being right and wrong gives improper guidance. Right but distasteful/unfortunate, sure. But ultimately best to say one way or another.
Sure. Though I meant the point of bringing up Sylvanas.
Its cute you have not noticed that I refuse to read your epic rants.
I barely want to engage with you, much less debate you.
I don’t think a single word you utter here is of any value.
How many times must I say “k” for you to get a hint?
I would HATE it. Unless they split the kaldorei into their own not-evil faction (maybe along with the Tauren? they and the nelfs have more in common with each other than with their own factions), I’d quit the game. I mean, admittedly I barely play as it is, I’m not loving Shadowlands and rarely log in except for RP, but I still have one active sub. I’d bail entirely if I’m not able to play someone who is, at worst, a red-in-my-ledger hero.
If the writers decide we’re going to have an evil Alliance expansion, then yes. The story just turns on a whim of marketing and whatever the writers deem cool at this point, logic and prior developments be damned.
Mainly, because no matter what they’ll do it’ll always come down to “because the horde” and written to fit. They can nuke Orgrimmar and they’ll find a way to have it justified because of the Horde simply just existing.
Droité do you know what the definition of lip service even is? Are you just using that word, because it makes it sound better for you Blizzard conspiracy against you? It’s a lot easier to just say that Teld wasn’t in the horde story for BfA, because it wouldn’t have been so much fun for the wittle horde players ego. They supported Teld in the narrative almost at length, and it was actions like Derek that went further, and further against themselves that crossed the line. Eugh. It’s not even interpretation.
Yeah yeah. You don’t care if Alliance get to do something, woe is your horde roster. The problem is clearly how many of you will be pitching fits as the shoe drops you might lose a location. You expect Alliance players to be able to keep their hands clean, because of how long they’ve never been allowed to do anything. This dialogue you try to parade, as well as the others with glazed over eyes never makes any sense. You’re still mad about Legion? Christ the expansion before Legion was Orcs the Expansion, get over it.
I can only fathom the negative blowback from Alliance players if Blizz allowed them
Yeah that’s all you can fathom, because you’re the only one doing it. Justification is separated from whitewashing, and invalidating by the way. Justification can easily be something that is tuned to the story, at that point you just don’t like any facet of the story, and would prefer to make stuff up as you go. You’re literally one of the people I know of asking for an Alliance black action to both come out of no where, and hold no weight against the horde. YOU are thirsty for the victimhood Driote, and the rest of your ilk amongst these posters.
BOTH are expensive, and as the Paladin cleverly pointed out, one has a much bigger cost if the legal process proving and condemning the “potential assassin” is wrong/ corrupted or flawed. Ergo, why even if killing is “cheaper” -and this only if it´s doine in the less “humane ways”, execution following pseudo humane ways is expensive AF too- it isn´t widely considered. Killing an innocent is waaay more expensive for a State; the economical reparations alone are HUGE.
Because it IS morally bankrupt, it´s literally the cheaper, easy way out. Also, the way you can´t fix after executing it (ergo, the “less moral” one).
And circumstances actually condemn MORE our PCs in those events… if we are members of the “elite” races from Azeroth, why are we resorting to petty murder / genocide instead of trying sensible diplomatic approaches when we have the military and economic resources to IMPLEMENT those?
Which is the very deffinition of hypocrisy… “I hate war but I´m ok with condoning it when the direct consequences don´t impact me, lul”.
It is not rocket science man… literally the only thing one needs to figure that out is to leave the ego and the double standards behind.
Both Sylvanas and Anduin follow the same character “development” path: they both stay static into their premises and the narrative twist to prove them right at any point, be this making Sylvanas look like a 10D chess master or Anduin as the guy that literally get proven right as per the aknowledgment of the other characters (as a matter of fact characters that oppose his premise get coded as if they´re wrong and need to fix themselves like Tyrande with the whole Night Warrior is bad and will kill her BS in Ardenweald). Both limit the natural development of the characters surrounding them (making an Orc of Orcs like Saurfang act like a cowardly sissy or making a pragmatic angry demihuman like Genn act like a submissive puppy) with no logical sequence involved. Ergo both are detrimental to the organic narrative development of the story.
But you only see a problem with Sylvanas, ergo, double standards… cause BOTH of those characters are problematic in the same metric.
Yeah, suddenly you’re trying to pretend you’re civil. That didn’t prove any double standard, and you showed me no example of where I was touting one. I think your eyes must have had trouble rolling to the front in your rabid rage of pinching yourself. BUT! Since you’re being civil.
They’re both the worst characters of the narrative, and equally rip down the story in great quantities every time they’re speaking on screen, if you’re accusing me of doing something, you can point out where I’m giving Anduin an excuse. I’ll wait, I won’t even slink off like you’re trying to say I do.
Sylvanas is worse. An existing character since Wc3 becoming a ‘sexy’ emo-teared, flying, superhero ghost, who somehow convinces people she cares as she’s murdering their family is at lengths WAY worse then Anduin deflating characters. The worst part about Anduin is that no one stands up to him without being a villain the rest of him is just underwhelming.
I dare you to show me my double standard from a previous statement.